So, how's everyone else getting on with 5.7?

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Just wondering how everyone else's first experiences of 5.7 are going? I've just taken the decision to revert to 5.6 for a new site we're working on. I'm sure 5.7 will be fantastic eventually, but it didn't quite feel ready for the primetime yet. Also a few big plugins aren't ready yet.

• I'm not fully getting my head round how page types and defaults are supposed to work in 5.7 - not sure this has changed for the better.

• Also a little disappointed that it is still so easy for theme styles/code to conflict with the C5 UI... I get that we can wrap all our content in a wrapper div and use child selectors in our css, but kinda feels like we shouldn't have to. Why not make the C5 styles really specific instead to avoid the likelyhood of a clash, especially since the UI has been completely overhauled.

• I really like the drag and drop blocks, but the editable areas need to be made clearer IMO. Also some of my styles carry over into the text editor, but not all. Also having an issue where I have a section in white text - the block editor has a white background and makes the area appear blank when editing.

Overall I can see (and really appreciate) all the hard work that has gone into 5.7 so far. For now I'll be sticking with 5.6 though until 5.7 is as polished and perfect as previous versions have been for the last few years :-)

mrjcgoodwin
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frz replied on at Permalink
frz
well at this point there's NO add-ons or themes for 5.7, so yeah you're on the leading edge for sure. ;)

the editable areas thing is a head scratcher for people who are used to 5.6, as we've taken big steps to simply make them not as important to understand to the casual editor. I expect this will continue to annoy people who are used to 5.6 but be a complete non-issue to folks who start with 5.7 and feel comfortable just putting a block where they want it on the page.

The pagetypes/themes thing is a vast improvement and we're really excited about it. If you ever used our own calendar add-on (or many other add-ons) you've realized that you're stuck to a page layout because of the page type when you really shouldn't have to. To add an event you'd have to add a page using the event page type. If you wanted to change the layout for a specific event to say use the left sidebar instead of right, you're outta luck.

Now you can map blocks to different block areas so you can switch templates for the same page type. So that same calendar detail page type now can map to left column, right column, full width, etc..

It really gives some clarity on what page types are for. In the past, it was EITHER data model for things like a blog post or calendar item, or layout for things like left sidebar right sidebar.. That's sloppy. Now your page types are data models (blog post, job post, etc) and your templates are form factors (left column, right column) and they can map in multiple ways. Much better.
mrjcgoodwin replied on at Permalink
mrjcgoodwin
Hi Frz,

Thanks for the reply and the clarification on the page templates - I think that helps to see it from that point of view, and maybe I'm just not understanding it conceptually. Clearly I need to read more documentation on this to get my head straight - where can I read about this more? I watched the videos prior to release and thought it all made sense - but putting it into practise was a bit more puzzling!

The way I've traditionally used page types for clients, is to set up defaults for them with blocks in place as placeholders, there's not really usually scope/requirement for them to move things like sidebars about, as we've designed how the whole site will look for them prior to development, and then created appropriate page templates. This is also especially important as we usually dev fully responsive, so need to know elements work were they are meant to be positioned. I guess to sum up - the way we've leveraged C5 in our designs traditionally is to use blocks to allow clients to add/re-order their content rather than wholesale alter the page layout/appearance.

So now I need to figure out mapping the blocks into different templates!
frz replied on at Permalink
frz
Chances are what you've done in the past will continue to work fine in the future.

We've certainly had clients where they might create a page using a two column layout and then want to convert it into a three column later. What happens with page defaults when that conversion happens. This new architecture lets you create better answers for that problem.

And yup, docs. Love it.
Ale replied on at Permalink
Franz,

I try to say this with all respect and sincerity (and please note that English is not my primary language, so I might sound harsh unintentionally).

You stated: "...complete non-issue to folks who start with 5.7 and feel comfortable just putting a block where they want it on the page"

When I read something like this, I feel really bad for the community and especially developers around here. Regardless of many _top_ devs telling that the 5.7 UI is "unintuitive", "cumbersome" and "clunky", you keep saying that it's just that people familiar with the 5.6 UI are just too stuck with it and new people don't have any problems with the new UI. With my experience, since version 5.2 people have been fascinated about how intuitive and straighforward in-context editing is, but now there are new people saying that the edit mode and especially adding pages is complicated and confusing. I feel that's something you should be concerned about.

Concrete5 has been my choice of CMS for over 5 years and I've been involved in 70-100 site projects. Most likely I will continue using Concrete5, but at the moment I don't see any reason to recommend 5.7 for clients. Like many other devs here, I'm really excited about what has changed under the hood, but feel that UX/UI-wise things are not ready, although it wouldn't require big changes to make the UI much more usable.

Just my two (euro)cents.
mrjcgoodwin replied on at Permalink
mrjcgoodwin
I've got to say I agree with this.

Again with massive respect and sincerity for the great work of the C5 team, as I really like this CMS and the people behind it.

For our clients the brilliant in-context editing has been the biggest 'selling' point who love the simplicity, reliability and ease of use. For us to recommend 5.7 over 5.6 to our clients we'd need to be sure these features were just as good going forward.
Hypocrite replied on at Permalink
Hypocrite
I completely agree with this.

I do like the new interface of 5.7. It's just it has some really rough edges still which make it very hard to jump in.

I just recently had a meeting with a design agency where we were showing of Drupal and concrete5 5.6 to graphic designers. After the session the first thing the designers said was that they really liked the interface and how intuitive it is to use.

This has been the most important selling point when I have been showcasing concrete5 to customers. And it has ALWAYS been a very easy sell when I just open up a demo page and show how easy it is to create a new page and start adding content.

With 5.7 I don't feel at all comfortable with some of the aspects of the UI and I feel that if I would show this to a customer, I would really need to practise my steps beforehand so that I would not make any mistakes when I show how the system works. This has never been an issue with 5.6.

It is really worrying also to read the comments of new users here who are still not clear about the market place integration and how to handle themes and add-ons with 5.7. When you install a new CMS and start learning it, it's important that there are not big issues which make you scratch your head. And in my opinion the point that new users are pushed towards 5.7 when it's not 100% ready, makes it a bad sell. For example read Willough's comment in this thread for an example. That is not how it should be.

I can totally understand the underlying philosophy in 5.7 but I do think that there should have been more baby steps instead of leaps.

I think everyone here would like to see concrete5 prospect and become more popular. But there are always growing pains and I think we should address them as a community and try to push concrete5 towards.
juddc replied on at Permalink
juddc
^ +1 on this
Veronikan replied on at Permalink
Veronikan
I just built my first site with 5.7. I gave an old client who was on a combo of Wordpress and hard coding a discount so she could be my test client.http://tenauras.com

Here are some issues:
Odd
Moving the site from local to server, all text in content blocks was lost after the first ' (apostrophe) - weird.

Size
Moving the relatively small site - 59mg size zipped, 95 unzipped, untenable with bigger projects. Granted, I have some big pics on it, but virtually all my clients are artists, that will always be the case.

Slow
Always had problems with slow loading on shared hosting, this new site is even slower. Will have to pay better attention to optimizing assets.

Editing
Redactor bar sits on top of first line of text in content block (perhaps I need to check css conflicts). Already mentioned here and elsewhere, no undo button, missing lots of formatting necessary for my clients who are writers, does not show styles passed through classes assigned to block, so this will be confusing for users.

For some reason, no matter where I hovered, I could not edit one block in particular. I managed it once, but got a permanent blue spinning wheel. Tried moving it, that didn't work. Then discarded other edits, they didn't go away.

When I try to move a block on a page by dragging it, the window does not scroll, so I have to use the arrow buttons while holding down the mouse. Editing in general is really, really buggy.

Not being to change page type was a PITA and will definitely factor into pre-planning on next site.

Missing some essential features from earlier versions, no point in having drag & drop reorder of image files in sets if there are no thumbnails!

One thing I love about C5 is that I could restrict my clients from messing up the design. I have no idea how I'll manage all the formatting features and keep them from going nuts with background colors and tiny columns. On the other hand, I do love the Less processing and grid integration possibilities.

Theming
Missing documentation... took quite awhile to figure out how to get page template handle. Still don't know how to include an excerpt from content in blog page list template - essential for any (non-corporate) working blog.

System and Settings
Setting permissions, especially for an editor group, still seems rather opaque.

Anyway, learning curve and growing pains and all of that. Looking forward to when things work really well, full documentation is available, and I have a much better of understanding of the whole system.
juddc replied on at Permalink
juddc
I just launched a 5.7 client site today - the first one out of my shop, and though I'd share my thoughts as well.

Same issue as Veronikan with regards to zipped and unzipped size. Same speed issue too. It's a little like having a boat anchor tied to the site on cheap web hosting. That said, cheap hosting sucks, we all know it. The site was fairly speedy on my hosted dev environment (which I know to be fast), but not nearly as fast as 5.6.

Building a theme and packaging it up was fairly surprise-free except for learning I needed to register Jquery as an asset in page_theme.php - which broke a block that I'd purchased in the marketplace. Shouldn't that be done by default?

I made good use of the grid layouts for pages and page types. I initially tried Foundation, but I couldn't get it to work, so I used BS3. Not a fan of BS, but loading the grid only via my scss build was fairly painless.

Big bug in copy & paste though, as a pasted block would throw another margin (container) around itself and you'd be left with a left-hand margin.

Placing content - this kinda sucked. The tray seriously slowed me down. Open, close, open, close, wait for it... wait for it... wait for it OPEN! I *still* think the tray is a step backwards.

Placing blocks is still tempermental, block overlap (or rather no visual separation in edit mode) means I'm sometimes placing blocks in the wrong area and have to fart around and move them. And Copy and Paste - WHY ON EARTH are they not together? This makes zero sense. I'm often pasting in blocks that are common across pages and this was a painful process.

Redactor is slicker than TinyMCE, but in the end, as I was manually adding target="_blank" to external URLS, I was like "What year is this??". And registered styles in Redactor are just as flakey as TinyMCE's.

Styles added via page_theme.php are quite terse. No option for combining styles (.right .mobile-no) so if I wanted 2 styles, I’d have to write a new one, then register it in PT.php.

Moving the site cause my user passwords to need to be reset.

The Good:
- Filterable Page Lists by Topic (fantastic job on this)
- Page Types being able to handle multiple templates
- Grid layouts - A few bugs but worked great - Saves on templates
- Attributes Block
- Less time spent on building templates, more time for content placement (which was needed).
MrKDilkington replied on at Permalink
MrKDilkington
For everyone who feels that Redactor is too basic in what it offers. Please check out this thread.
http://www.concrete5.org/community/forums/5-7-discussion/redactor-i...

I am putting together a list of features people feel are important and need to be added. There is also some information on Redactor plugins.

The goal is adding these features, as a community, by building plugins.
mesuva replied on at Permalink
mesuva
Interestingly I did a bit of investigation into creating Redactor plugins (I thought I'd have a look at what it would take to build a special character button) - the process looks really clean and straightforward, which means that hopefully we'll see some awesome things developed in the future.

My only real confusion today though was that I think the interface/style of plugin has changed a bit from version 9 to version 10 of Redactor. I was trying their example code and simply couldn't get it to initialise a basic button, but then I had a look at the concrete5 specific plugins and saw that the format was a bit different.

So I hope that Redactor is updated soon to the latest version, I think that will make filling in the gaps in it's functionality much easier.

The only other thing I wasn't sure of was the best way to actually include and link in a new plugin, other than overriding the content block's edit.php and add.php files. It would be great if we could just drop in plugins into a folder (or better still registered via a package) and have it automatically pick them up. I'm sure something like this is on the cards.
AndyJ replied on at Permalink
that's exactly what I found. I had a trawl around github to see what plugins other people have developed for other implementations. I didn't find many but I found a few which I could possibly spur off. I read through the docs and api info on the imperavi site but then got stuck when coming back to the 5.7 code which left me stuck as to where to start again. I was lost as to how and where to include the plugins. I was hoping to get further along but it seems more complex than I expected.

Some documentation on this would be extremely useful and also an upgrade to redactor version 10.
MrKDilkington replied on at Permalink
MrKDilkington
It looks like a possible Redactor update is on the table for milestone 5.7.4.
https://github.com/concrete5/concrete5-5.7.0/issues/1434...
juddc replied on at Permalink
juddc
Hey MrJC,

In the interest of comparing notes...

I took a c5 site that I did a custom responsive theme for and redid it for 5.7 from scratch with new code. It took me a while to get things figured out, and I even turfed my first 2 goes at it (5.7.0.3 solved a bunch of stuff for me) but my general impression was good. There is more power out of the box - with the client requests I get these days, I'm happy to see a lot of these improvements.

• I'm +1 on the new Page Types arrangement - it worked well for me. I also like the grid framework integration, although based on a few issues I had (and others in the forums, it seems) there are some issues to iron out there. I also think baking in a Page Attribute block and having the ability to filter Page List blocks really brings the CMS up a notch from where it was.

• As a guy who builds sites, I'm often the guy populating content, and to that end, the new UI slowed me down considerably. The separation of the copy/paste is fairly disjointed (why on earth are they not together?) - Paste isn't at all obvious. The 2 trays (Edit and Add Block) are cumbersome (and often slow to load) to use. I'm moving all around the screen trying to add and edit, rather than focusing on the bit that I'm working on - thats distracting.

• Also miss a direct link to the dashboard - I use it as a command center, so I found myself manually typing it in /dashboard a lot. I've also got the usual 5.6 - 5.7 gripes heard around the forums.

So some plusses, and some minuses. Its going to be interesting when I get a client to sit down in front of it and see how they react.

Cheers!
J
RadiantWeb replied on at Permalink
RadiantWeb
@juddc - I agree the block and page editing experience feels cumbersome and unintuitive. This is something that has been voiced any number of times since as far back as a year and a half ago. You might consider this subjective...although I don't think so. I think it's just clunky.

I mean, it's one thing if you're not even advertising that your platform is front-end intuitive. But if you are, then it should be...for more than one narrow select group of subjective appreciators.

There are SO many great and awesome things happening for Concrete5.7. I am personally excited about many of them. It's just a shame that we've failed to realize that if it's cumbersome....people won't use it. That is the part I am most concerned about.

It's tough. You want a platform to be great, and you recognize so much time and money have been poured out into something...but you want that bar to be raised and held to a higher standard. And sometimes that means looking at something critically and listening to users struggles with your vision. Maybe your vision was close....but not quite there.

That is a possibility.

C
juddc replied on at Permalink
juddc
@RadiantWeb

I hear you - its's a big change - and I know you've invested a lot of time and effort with your offerings in the marketplace (thank you, BTW). I don't know if it's as unintuitive as you believe it is - however, when all the content on a page is filled in, it's still a better editing experience than WP. Is it as good as before? Meeeeehhh... Tough to say. The clients will tell me that.

I believe that annoyances exist with every CMS. This isn't InDesign where you can drag copy & images *anywhere* on a page - but maybe thats just me - I've worked with software (Adobe in particular - think MacOS 7) for so many years, that interface re-designs aren't neccesarily new, and that they don't always make things easier, but they do allow for new power under the hood to be accommodated.
RadiantWeb replied on at Permalink
RadiantWeb
There is no perfect CMS. Agreed.

ChadStrat
Willough replied on at Permalink
I am having an awful time beginning a project. I am new to Concrete5, having selected it as something simple, but finding it terribly complicated to begin. Many of the videos pertain to older versions that are no longer applicable.

I cannot connect my site to a project. Though I have an account in the forum I get this message under Projects: "You have not connected any sites to the concrete5 community". And, on the site, though I have changed the site's name, I do not have any sign in or way to establish a connection under extend concrete5. What to do?

Also, I had to move some default themes from the concrete/themes directory to the /themes directory to make them visible. But when I change from one theme to another none of the site's content is visible, just blank pages. I have watched about 25 beginner videos, again all aimed at prior versions, the most recent 5.6, but am getting nowhere fast. Trying to complete a simple site and would like to make this work. As a new community user I cannot start a thread so I am tacking on to this one. Sorry for that.

Any help appreciated.
Mnkras replied on at Permalink
Mnkras
concrete5 version 5.7.0.* does not have marketplace integration at the moment, there are very few blocks and themes that have updated at the moment, version 5.7.1+ will have marketplace integration and should be coming in a few weeks.

Mike
juddc replied on at Permalink
juddc
My advice is to start your project with 5.6. 5.7 is still a ways off from being solid - it's still bleeding edge.
Willough replied on at Permalink
After much hair pulling I discovered my install, done through a Scriptaculous installer, did not have the theme samples included. After a reinstall there are now editable blocks, images and files from the Elemental theme, where before there were no visible elements at all. I think I will now stick it out for a few more days rather than try to install 5.6. No wonder it seemed impossible.

I still don't quite understand why the other themes in the concrete/themes directory such as Greek Yogurt, do not show up under "pages and themes". Elemental is the one and only choice there. Do they need to be moved or copied somewhere?
Phallanx replied on at Permalink
Phallanx
@Willough
Quote>>
I still don't quite understand why the other themes in the concrete/themes directory such as Greek Yogurt, do not show up under "pages and themes". Elemental is the one and only choice there. Do they need to be moved or copied somewhere?
<<

They were not updated to work with 5.7.
This is what I was told by Frz when I questioned this.

Quote>>
We didn't port over plain yogurt, greek yogurt or green salad because
its 2014 and they look ridiculous.
<<

Quote>>
if you want to see plain yogurt for 5.7, by all means port it yourself and stick it in the marketplace. It's open source.
<<
daverowland replied on at Permalink
I just installed my first 5.6 - 5.7 migrate and to be quite honest, I am stuck! I am comfortable with 5.6 and how to make a site but now I sat here thinking, how do I get my $15 theme from the Marketplace over to 5.7 build, cannot find how to connect it up to the new build but I thought around now things would be 'ironing out'.

I have read that the developer has updated the theme i used, but now I question of how to get it? I used to click and just install it easy with no FTP.

Ok its early days, I may just wait for more info.

So my initial thoughts (after reviewing some new videos), I like the style and energy but I feel like we need a tutorial 'button hints' method of using Concrete 5 as a user. Maybe we could create Balloon sequence as I am finding a lot of the bits confusing on first try.
The video was good, I know it will help but is there a button to get back to this video somewhere?

So my initial thoughts from a 5.6 user, is not as easy walk in the park as I thought it would be.

With regards Backup, can I use to backup content in 5.6 and restore into 5.7? just basics would be good?!
bw1 replied on at Permalink
I agree -- I was just trying to work on a new site in 5.7 and I'm lost. Everything seems much larger and more annoying, and I can't even figure out where to connect to the community.

I haven't even looked yet, but as this was the primary Download link I presume that it's actually released as stable. If it is, I'm more than let down. If it's not, why the h*** is it the main download?

I've been working with C5 for years and manage ~50 websites with it. I'm okay with change, but I'm not liking much of anything in this new version....... yet anyway.....
Blenderite replied on at Permalink
Blenderite
How come 5.7 can't use the addons and themes from previous versions? Seems a little weird to me. Why would C5 basically start from the beginning?
RadiantWeb replied on at Permalink
RadiantWeb
@Blenderite - the move was a necessary evil.

From a code standpoint the versions are night and day difference. C5.6 < was good for what it was when it started 7-8 years ago. But since that time, new technologies and advancements in code patterns have evolved.

The code restructuring in 5.7 still has some refactoring to go yet, specifically regarding taking better advantage of ORM. But it is lightyears more flexible from an application extensibility standpoint than 5.6 ever could have been.

The UI and all hooks are different. Tools files removed. Helpers removed. (although I still use my own helper class) The folder structure is completely different...ect.

It's definitely a PITA to convert larger applications from 5.6 to 5.7. But it is well worth it, and the right move.

Now if we can just get the UX and speed polished...I think we're good to go :-)

ChadStrat
Kiesel replied on at Permalink
Have you found an easy solution to implement own helpers? And with easy I mean as easy as before....
MrKDilkington replied on at Permalink
MrKDilkington
OKDnet replied on at Permalink
OKDnet
@Blenderite Themes and addons can be updated to be 5.7+ compatible, which is nothing like having to write it from scratch, so it's really not at all like "starting from the beginning". You will start to see this happening soon. Most developers are planning their upgrades based on their own self determined priorities.
KnightsColumbusWebGuy replied on at Permalink
I am relatively new to the community. I took a stab at Concrete5 about 2 years ago. I wasn't completely happy with it and opted for Wordpress on that project instead. I also use Xara as a site and graphic designer tool. I tend to prefer it as a static site builder due to my experience and time using it.

Until now I haven't needed a CMS website. However I made a website for my Knights of Columbus council. It was a static site built in Xara. However the council changes the calendar, officers and contact information regularly. My plan was to train whoever was managing the website to update the via Xara. Well that plan failed. To many different people and to many computers involved. As a result I heard a clamor of requests to build the website in a CMS than can be edited in a browser based environment.

I like fresh minimalistic design. So I figured I would see whats new with Concrete5 and I was not let down. I love the new interface and drag and drop style building blocks. Designing the layout of the blocks is super easy once you figure how the whole operation works. (again a relative noob to concrete5 here)

I have two questions though.

First question - do we have an idea as to how long till add-ons are compatible with 5.7?
I want to add a photo gallery function that's native in the website. These guys are old and not so computer literate. The least amount of log ins the better. They are super excited to be able to upload photos from events and functions to the website themselves, so its really a high priority for me to figure out.

Second question - Now that the site is basically finished (aside from a few loose ends) can I save the entire site on my computer and re-upload it as a functioning concrete5 site? (in the event something goes wrong with the current site or if I wish to reuse the template) If I can, how do I do it? (I have a full understanding of web admin and use filezilla to manage my files, so if I download all the completed files and save it then re-upload to empty space will it function?)

I know I am multi purpose posting here. I hope its ok since I am new to navigating this forum.

To bring it back to 5.7 though, I like it. I will like it a whole lot more once the bugs are worked out and there is more tutorial information geared toward the 5.7 UI.

I would post my site link but I didn't see the rules on that yet....
OKDnet replied on at Permalink
OKDnet
I wish I knew the answer to the first question (as I'm sure many others would as well).

Unlike a static site, much of database driven site such as Concrete5 is stored in the database. So moving it is a combination of moving all the core and extra files, as well as a copy of the database.

Seehttp://www.concrete5.org/documentation/installation/moving_a_site/...
rockface replied on at Permalink
rockface
I love Concrete5 and find it very easy to sell my clients on it. But all the talk about what you like in the new version is honestly missing the most important aspect of our whole little community here. According to http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/content_management... Concrete5 has been stuck at .2% of the CMS market share for the past year. It really needs to do something amazing to get out of this rut and this new effort might do it… or will it?

The main problem (to me) is this statement on the download page... "Note: There is currently NO UPGRADE script from 5.6, this is a new version for new sites."

This creates a very large risk for developers. Why would anyone want to write (or continue to support) code written for the 5.6 marketplace if it has no feature growth potential? And likewise, 5.7 is a complete unknown! It has no way to get customers from 5.6, so it has zero % of the market (no clients), no market place, it's pretty buggy and all the out-side developers have to re-learn how to work within the new design. I've tried to convert a few of my add-ons to 5.7, and have found much of the code works just fine, but very few php files work without some modification.

Without a migration plan from 5.6 to 5.7, it feels like everything I've developed will be lost, and all the clients will be stuck in the past without support. Most of my clients are SMALL businesses, and few, if any, have the capital needed to re-design and re-build their web sites from ground zero.

If concrete5 does not provide tools to migrate to 5.7, it would be the same as shutting their doors, abandoning all the customers, and opening a new CMS company... It's too bad they don't own concrete6.org :-)

Bottom line... the download page MUST be changed to tell us exactly what the plan is for migrating from 5.6 to 5.7.
frz replied on at Permalink
frz
Not really. We've consistently talked about "migration" vs. just "upgrade" with 5.7.
To be clear, Drupal always does this with major version releases, there's no magic upgrade button but rather a series of scripts, how-tos, and well wishes. Wordpress never does, you can hit upgrade and take a wordpress 1.0 site all the way to today.

For 6 years we made update always work. Now we wanted the room to improve some deep architecture stuff like layouts and page types and the only way to create an environment where that big thinking could happen was to go migrate instead of update. Wasn't a choice we made lightly, but it's a choice we made and it's done. We won't be making a similar choice any time in the near future, and we've been very very clear about it many many times.

That being said, yes there will be more work into creating easy ways to import content into 5.7 and export it from 5.6 so you have some nice tools to use when its time to sell your client a major upgrade like this.
rockface replied on at Permalink
rockface
Concrete5 is an awesome CMS, I love working with it and promoting to the small businesses I support. And I'm sure 5.7 will be leaps and bounds above 5.6. Your comment about Drupal made me re-look at their stats... they lost .6% of their customers this year alone. Could be partly related to not providing a migration strategy for them. On the flip side, WP (who does provide upgrades) somehow gained 2.5% more customers.

I understand you guys must have thought long and hard about this and it did not come easy! But you have to understand the 1000's of hours of work it took to build the marketplace (by out-side developers) is only the tip is the ice burg. I write lots of custom code which never makes to to the marketplace. Customers who want their own work flow, look or code. Not only does 5.7 abandon them, it makes me ill to think of all the cool add-ons and themes in the marketplace being unavailable to my new customers on 5.7. I'm also a little peeved, that one release of Concrete5, would render the few add-ons I have, in the marketplace, to be a useful as a floppy disks.

I'm sticking with Concrete5 because it was an awesome run and hope you guys can pull this off... but for now - i'm just going to log-off and cry for a little while.
frz replied on at Permalink
frz
It's probably an over simplification to ascribe any project's success
to a single factor. Personally I think wordcamp has as much or more to
do with their growth as any technical feature. If you're a small
business looking to learn more about getting your business online
you're going to feel much more at home at a wordcamp than drupalcon.
But yes - as stated many times - this is not something we have ever
done before or plan to do often. I simply offered Drupal as an example
that we're not alone in thinking about migration vs upgrade from time
to time in the software world.

Again as stated before, 5.6 will continue to be supported for at least
a year by us, and if there's a compelling reason to continue
security/bug support longer, we may.

As a reminder, 5.5 required all add-ons to be updated before they
worked, and included dramatic interface changes that many of our
community leaders hated. It also resulted in our project's growth rate
increasing and the business doubling revenue in the following year.

When we released that, there were long heated angry threads about the
X icon in the corner of the dashboard pages that made them feel like
an overlay window when they were really a page. There was the same
indignant outrage over our absolute foolishness, and befuddlement over
why we didn't just do what we were being told by the people who
believed they used our software more than we do. Ideas ranged from
getting rid of it, making it just go back one page in your history, to
even making it go back 10 pages in your history. Hours went into forum
posts about this.

Four years later I doubt too many people would disagree with me when I
say the X didn't matter at all to the bottom line or UX, but cross
navigating the dashboard is a PITA. The truth is there are very few
black and white issues in life. It's wonderful to have created
something that gets folks so passionate. To any readers or posters in
this thread, I'd simply offer in general the best way to get us to
understand a real issue is to take an measured academic position that
shows a nuanced world view.

Things will continue to get things dialed in, we'll continue to listen
to reasoned feedback and come up with creative solutions to real
problems. Our process has never really changed in that aspect. If
anything we've become more transparent over time by using git issues.
We appreciate the challenges we're creating by bucking the ecosystem,
but it's time - 5.6 is looking long in the tooth, certainly compared
to 5.7, and the future is bright.
davidinottawa replied on at Permalink
davidinottawa
This thread is getting so old. I'm on board with Franz on this one.
The underlying structure of 5.6 cannot accommodate for moving the product forward the way that 5.7 can and will do.

This mentality has been accepted in the Drupal community since forever. There is no one click upgrade between versions. Migration scripts are a best attempt.

Comparing Drupal 7.3 and Drupal 8 is apples to oranges.
*Everything* has changed. The underlying code base has been moved to Symfony. Dries has explained that two of the major reasons for this is shift is a) extensibility and b) attracting top programming talent

Wordpress is a patched together mess of non vetted plugins and a core mixed with procedural php, oo php and everything in between.

C5 team : as a brand new user, the C57 product looks fantastic to me. Thanks for providing a product that works for end users, designers and developers. I think people need to focus on developing AddOns and Themes that will work with C57 instead of going on and on and on and on about their disappointments with the new and improved C57.
RadiantWeb replied on at Permalink
RadiantWeb
@davidinottawa - first of all, welcome to the community. Glad to have you. And thank you for your thoughts.

That said, some of this discussion really should not be public but be in the leaders thread.

No one here is making any claim that 5.7 should be like 5.6. No on here is claiming that 90% of 5.7 isn't amazing and moving in the right direction.

People are, however, expressing professional concerns and legitimate business "prospectives" (as frz would say).

Some of which are very valid & legitimized points.

- Some people find the UI to be nice and shinny, but lacking in productive UX.
- Some people here are quite concerned about their clients reactions. I have clients that have more than $250,000 invested into C5 sub5.7 applications that are now going to have to re-invest in those. They are not happy needless to say. They're also not happy about having to re-train hundreds of users to get used to the new UI.

This is all good and well and can be brushed off all day long by those that do not have these accountabilities, but the simple fact is, these are legitimate concerns and very valid perspectives that do matter.

To brush these off or treat them as inconsequential or even as "grumpy ass people that just simply hate change" is lacking in due diligence and good prudence.

Everybody is not going to agree. That's all good and well. But that does not constitute writing off peoples feedback on the mere grounds that you perhaps believe you know better.

That same argument could be made both ways one might think. But that's actually not the case. One person being completely convinced that UX is "fine" and "good enough" does not satisfy the ones that do not. Whereas if the ones that are convinced it needs work have their way about it, both parties quite possibly could be sufficiently satisfied.

You can't please everyone. But I think any time you have X number of people all saying the same things....you should step back and really ask yourself - "do I really know as much as I think I do?"

To not do so is honestly asking for whatever very negative response you get served up imo.

ChadStrat
Phallanx replied on at Permalink
Phallanx
@RadiantWeb

+1 with bells on..
davidinottawa replied on at Permalink
davidinottawa
Hi ChadStrat - Thanks for the reply and the Welcome.
This Community is so active, it's great to be joining it at such a key time as the release of C57.

I've developed in Drupal for a long time - over 8 years. So I can only comment on my experience in similar circumstances.

I "get" the feeling that Concrete5 has released 5.7 in what seems like total disregard to their existing user base such as yourself. But it's really with the long term vision in mind.
Your 5.6 sites will continue to run flawlessly. Your 5.6 clients will continue to be happy updating their content. The Community and AddOns will continue to work. This is not being taken away - there is not a panic at this time to upgrade these guys.
Just keep on keeping on.
What's the life span of a client anyway ? For me, it's typically between 3-5 years. And in that time their needs change, and the technology changes. So we revisit the site build, and deliver a product they're happy with - and perhaps 50% of the time it's using a new or different tool - some recently even opting out on a CMS altogether and jumping on the single page parallax site in flat HTML trend! It fits their needs.

So, when you're happy with the C57 product, use it for your clients. Until then use C5.6 - or something else altogether.
In the meantime :
Keep an eye on the C57 product and the conversations.
Use and test C57 on your MAMP and issue bugs, etc to the GitHub repo.
Do all this stuff to improve the product for you and everyone :http://www.concrete5.org/developers/submitting-code/...

Contribute to C57 to get the FOSS and MIT licensed product up to where you want it to be!

A negative that I have seen in this thread that I will agree on is the lack of documentation - but again. This is a FOSS product - so if I feel the docs need to be better, I should be helping to contribute to the creation of those docs.

My 2 cents - peace out!
mkly replied on at Permalink
mkly
@ChatStrat

"That said, some of this discussion really should not be public but be in the leaders thread."

For someone such as yourself, that understands the need for the concrete5 community to be presented as a welcoming and positive place based on helping each other solve problems and create awesome concrete5 sites and applications, you might want to consider that suggestion.
Phallanx replied on at Permalink
Phallanx
@mkly

quote>>
For someone such as yourself, that understands the need for the concrete5 community to be presented as a welcoming and positive place based on helping each other solve problems and create awesome concrete5 sites and applications, you might want to consider that suggestion.
<<

Ouch. Nice asteism (reaches for popcorn).
RadiantWeb replied on at Permalink
RadiantWeb
@mkly - to my knowledge I do not think I have ever flamed on in a non-leaders discussion. Feel free to message me any time you feel I am though. I might add as well - constructive feedback and ranting are very different things. I certainly do rant from time to time in the Leaders discussion. I'll give you that. But I do not think I have ever done so in recent memory in any public forum. And I don't find it reasonable to suggest that providing feedback that is anything but praise in a public forum as categorically 'ranting'. That seems very unreasonable to me. But this thread is not about ChadStrat - it's about C5.7. So...carry on...

C
RobertJNL replied on at Permalink
RobertJNL
I'd like to address these concerns from a general perspective, as these concerns are familiair to me, understandable and regular in any software development situation, definitely on a large scale. I've might have typed a bit strong, but know; I thank you all for contributions and people here at C5 <3


TLDR: ITIL ->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_Technology_Infrastructure_...


Client reactions for large clients = Expectation & Change management; an ongoing relationship.

The impact of 5.7 release has been know for long. Personally I've informed my clients several times, starting from first contact years ago, and we've not released/implemented new custom functionalities for at least a year now, while keeping their current functionalities up to par. This reserved budget to invest in these 5.7 changes, but I also had one of my clients choose a fully different solution for their main purpose.

It's my believe that if one solely delivers technical solutions, to a large client, and not managing their growth & environment: it's a job half done. Especially with web technologies which is subject to a fast changing environment; both on backend and their frontend. They know and respect this since they also invest in hardware and allround mobile usage grows; a companies operational budget. They don't like surprises indeed, so by managing these, i safeguard towards their business operational budget/expectations.

As a software implementor I have the (legitimate professional concerns) responsibility to educate them about innovations and set their expectations accordingly. It's exactly what takes a large chunk of my time. Upfront I inform them that their solution is based on a 3rd party system and therefor not fully in my control.

With setting expectations I am also responsible for change&release management; informing, releasing & instructing. Change management, which has an allocated budget, based on the managed expectations. Concrete5 news flow supports proper distribution of information related to the change/release management and providing instructional materials.

I also don't know any better than that large clients, specifically those with 100's of users and 250k investments, require service level agreements and a structured change/release management path. Setting expectations is regular client service and care. Taking care of these professional concerns is what's done both upfront & along the way.
All being in place to assist in an honest & open co-working agreement around a 'living' solution instead of the deliver&get-out method where clients dream up their own future expectations. Re-investing is a requirement to keep operational / expand lifetime. All in all they are happy with an open work method and this management and it surely saves me worries. They may not like some changes; but they are accepting, know we're in this together and are focussed on solving issues that might occur around this upgrade. It's open source, period , they have the right to change anything and will anticipate on future continuously, definitely for large clients: we should cover our business and clients before these situations occur.



+ I don't believe this should be in the leaderboard, C5 is open source software and the future of concrete5 should also remain in the public domain, without certain requirements to get you into a closed board.
+ Food for thought; The coin flip: Months ago I've also seen a thread around about charging for package updates, also for 5.7(?).. No clue how that finished and what will be implemented but isn't that then driving me up the same expectations/change management vs. re-investment path that is now being discussed here? Should I have expected that?


I hope this is contribution is usable for someone and helps one on a path of making these processes a more convenient for all involved parties. Growth/changes are here to benefit all and communication (just like the sales upfront) is a large part of how these things are perceived/received by our clients.
gailsedotes replied on at Permalink
Sorry to burst the self congratulatory bubble, but NOT being backward compatible means I have clients clicking the update button and fracking their site and databases. My clients are blue chip and are now looking at Drupal solutions. Well done indeed.

PS. I am having to rewrite e-commerce solutions in zencart. I thank you from the bottom of my tortured soul.
mhawke replied on at Permalink
mhawke
Where is the button that automatically upgrades their site to 5.7? All of my 5.6.x.x sites show 'No updates available' in the dashboard.
andrew replied on at Permalink
andrew
Drupal is going through exactly the same technical transition. I imagine that someone attempting to upgrade from Drupal 7 to Drupal 8 by dragging one set of files on top of them other is going to be in for a rude awakening as well.
delorentis replied on at Permalink
I have created sites with concrete5 cms from version 5.4.1.
I think developers who have achieved version 5.7 can be proud of the hard work done. but unfortunately my impression is that the new version of concrete5 (5.7) suffers from the window8 menu syndrome. I mean, this new version brings a lot of improvement, but also a big step backward about the user experience. I also think the following argument does not explain everything "I expect this to continue Will annoy people Who are Farming to 5.6 goal Be a full non-issue to start with 5.7 Who folks and feel comfortable just putting a block Where They want it on the page. "

more specifically here are some notes on simple editing of content:
I'm supposed to be able to easily add a content block where I want instinctively but in practice it is not so simple. If we talk about Website Builder like Wix I say yes. But the layout in the concrete5 system have predefined areas (main, sidebar, layouts)! So I have to fly over the areas and expect to see a visual cue (green) to determine where I can possibly add my block.

and to halve an area with functionality layout, and good luck!
(in the 5.7.0.4 version the twitter bootstrap option for the layouts is not always available).

I'm also not very comfortable with the fact that you can not add an image in the text editor from the image library, but only via a url.

Best,
frz replied on at Permalink
frz
Click the little magnifying glass next to that URL field and you can pick an image from the file manager.
delorentis replied on at Permalink 2 Attachments
- wow thank you for this quick and valuable feedback !

I take advantage of this answer to send you (which may be already been made) a "simple" suggestion of a possible optimization regarding the editing content (visual cue).

why dont « « simply » » add an option who could allow to activate and deactivate a visual cue for content areas with css or javascript (visual gif exemple attached) ?

Talking about layout and content editing here just a concrete example of some difficulty for adding layouts on the page:
in the second attached file (gif) we can see a practical problem to reach the option button of a content area. (this problem is certainly specifically bind to this template, the page footer zone sometimes overlaps the main zone). Other thing is that after adding a layout I have to reload the page to make the new layout borders visible on the page (gray edge who define the layout area).

apart from that the more I discover this new version of concrete5 and more I am excited about the new features, great job!
frz replied on at Permalink
frz
Showing all the areas as background colors in some debug mode is an
interesting idea. I wonder if it'd really be that helpful without
changing the spacing in edit mode. The reality is these areas butt up
right against each other so while the pink columns in layout looks
good as a comp, if we did that on the home page of elemental it would
mostly be a huge flat field of green. ;)

The chasing tab thing you're showing bears more thought. Some of the
area approaches we ended up using in Elemental to make full width
content possible make the tab positioning counter intuitive on those
areas too. Agreed.

The layout issue sounds like a version specific bug. When I add a new
layout, I get grey boxes around them without reloading the page.
delorentis replied on at Permalink 1 Attachment
not a huge flat field of green if adding visuals cues only to available zones destinations like in this new .gif file attached (visual image source concrete 5.7.0.4).

(I do not know if it's technically possible)

but I think having a visual information about the structure of the available content areas can be important especially for basics publishers.
concrete example:
without visual cue, lambda editors wont make the difference between a layout (twitter bootstrap) zone with images and on another page that use a page list block displaying pages thumbnails (like on the portfolio page), but in fact the available zones are very different between those two way of displaying images thumbnails.

I think it is not a priority issue but I still think that the tip of the iceberg remains some important way for the general public.
RobertJNL replied on at Permalink
RobertJNL
This. +1.

Showing all ccm-area-drag-area when dragging starts.
Possibly some minor margin's added to it (making sure they don't show 3 columns as 1 line & separation between full row and column area's).
The ccm-area-drag-area-selectable would then only change color.

Searching a place to drop your item while dragging is well, a drag. Certainly because some target-locations are quite sensitive.
Ale replied on at Permalink
"Showing all ccm-area-drag-area when dragging starts."

A big +1 for this. I believe this has been suggested by many devs here and it would be an easy fix make the edit mode MUCH more intuitive to use. No need hover & search -> biggest UI/UX complaint solved :)

Personally I would also like to see area names in the boxes. It's a lot easier to tell the client to "Drag the Content block from side panel to area called Footer middle 3" than "Drag the Content block from side panel to the rightmost green box in footer's middle row of green boxes".
Hypocrite replied on at Permalink
Hypocrite
+1 from here also.

I would also like that users could add blocks from the dropdown menu like in 5.6 in addition to the drag'n'drop.

The drag'n'drop is very nice and cool feature but it does not always work very well when you have to be careful how to hover the blocks in the correct place. It would sometimes be easier to get a dropdown menu with all the block options.
Ale replied on at Permalink
You are right about drag 'n drop. While it's efficient and combines selecting desired block and area actions nicely, it's much more prone for user errors and you can accidentally drop to wrong area, particularly if the desired area is at the bottom or top of the screen, where scrolling might occur during the drag (especially on touch devices).

On the other hand, offering both drag-n-drop and click-to-add at the same time can be confusing for the user.

Considering these "show areas while dragging" and "click to add" features, it will be interesting to see what kind of modification packages will be available in marketplace. Kind of reminds me of the 5.4 dashboard-look packages for 5.5+. Not sure if it's a good thing to have such packages though...I'd like to have the CMS as usable as possible out-of-the-box, without having to modify the UI at all. It would be actually quite confusing if you had multiple 5.7 sites with big differences in edit UIs.
mhawke replied on at Permalink 1 Attachment
mhawke
Try uploading the attached file to [root]/application/css/app.css

Then make sure all your c5 caching is off in the dashboard and clear your c5 cache and browser cache.

If you don't like it, just delete the application/css/app.css file and your system will revert to the default.

[UPDATE] The attached file breaks the marketplace dashboard pages. please treat it as a 'proof of concept' only.
juddc replied on at Permalink
juddc
Thanks for sharing this - The core team should take a good look at this.
mhawke replied on at Permalink
mhawke
Thanks... I kinda think it solves most of my issues.
juddc replied on at Permalink
juddc
Yeah - its amazing how little things make the biggest differences. The tray is a big improvement too - sizing the blocks down helps a lot. I do miss the global area hovers being blue though - I thought that was a good way to doing it.
mhawke replied on at Permalink
mhawke
Sorry, this was just the result of messing around while watching the World Series one night. I guess I missed the Global Areas being a different color. I'll see if that can be added.
juddc replied on at Permalink
juddc
Dude - Don't be sorry, eh? :)
mhawke replied on at Permalink
mhawke
Unfortunately, the app.css from 5.7.1 includes a bunch of styling for the marketplace dashboard pages so my app.css posted above breaks these pages.

I guess my file is a 'proof of concept'.
delorentis replied on at Permalink
yes, Thanks for sharing, this app.css is very interesting, I also think that the core team should take a good look at this.

viewing areas is much clearer.

however I still think that it is difficult to precisely reach in one time the area which you want to add content via the drag and drop function. To reach some areas to add content you must be pixel to close accurate .

THE ADVANTAGE IS:
I will be soon a PRO darts player
mhawke replied on at Permalink 1 Attachment
mhawke
So I have attached a package that is a rough, brute-force attempt at helping out with the UX but it WILL break if the core css file is changed (likely) because all it does is add css to the end of the page that overrides the core css. This is not the best way to handle this so I would not recommend installing this on production sites but it's fun to play with.

Unzip the attached file and upload the resulting 'custom_ux57' folder into your [root]/packages folder and visit 'Dashboard->Extend Functionality' to install. There are several options but just adding the default block seems to help me out a lot.

I kept it as a regular block instead of a dashboard page because you might not want this to work on every page. Just add it to a Global Area if you want it to work on every page.
JohntheFish replied on at Permalink
JohntheFish
You appear to have copied the block files over the package files, so there is no package controller.
mhawke replied on at Permalink
mhawke
Did I? I'll fix it ASAP.
mhawke replied on at Permalink
mhawke
I have replaced the zip in my post above with the correct one for the package.
JohntheFish replied on at Permalink
JohntheFish
Works nicely. I needed your block added to work out where to add your block!

If you or anyone else develops such an addon more seriously, I would favour a dashboard page to manage the settings and a button in the c5 toolbar to toggle it on/off.
delorentis replied on at Permalink
It seems that the core team add visual cue to content areas (edit mode) in the
last concrete5 5.7.2 version. Unfortunately there is a lot of element highlighted and the result is a little confusing now. i hope they will go further and find a cleaner solution.
JohntheFish replied on at Permalink
JohntheFish
Does this bug report cover part of what you are experiencing?
http://www.concrete5.org/developers/bugs/5-7-2/dragging-a-block-int...

If so, please add your +1 to the bug report.
mhawke replied on at Permalink
mhawke
I'm afraid the '+1' system on the bug report forum is clearly broken.

@delorentis... have you installed my block I posted above? With the changes to 5.7.2, I'm not sure if it helps or just adds more confusion.
delorentis replied on at Permalink 1 Attachment
@mhawke

As you can see in the attached picture, your package helped me on the 5.7.1 version. But unfortunately with the 5.7.2 version there is to many elements and the zones aren't good defined any more.
mhawke replied on at Permalink
mhawke
Yeah, that's a mess.

This is what happens when good ideas are ignored for 2 years and then fixing it afterwards is damn near impossible.

Measure twice, cut once.
andrew replied on at Permalink 1 Attachment
andrew
That's far messier than what we're experiencing or what we intended. What browser are you using? By contrast here's what I get when I drag a page into edit mode (see attached).

Certainly messier than having no hot spots visible – but we want to show all the places a block could go – not JUST the highlighted areas. Highlighted areas by themselves aren't that useful, since it's hard to know where one block might start and another might end inside them (since you can drag blocks into the middle of an area now.)
juddc replied on at Permalink 1 Attachment
juddc
If that was your intent, it seems lost when you have a block butting up against another block - see attached, I can't see that I have areas to drop blocks into below the 3 feature columns - Just looks like 1 line - which doesn't really tell me anything.
andrew replied on at Permalink
andrew
Yeah, in that case it is difficult to tell that that entire space is actually three blocks – instead of one large block that spans the full column. That's actually an interesting example, because further down the page we DO have one large block that spans the entire area that looks like several separate blocks (the page list block.)
juddc replied on at Permalink 1 Attachment
juddc
Exactly. I see it compounded by being able to drag above the 1st block in a column now - you couldn't do that in 5.6 - you had to add under.

If that was the case then you could do something like this (attached).

So how do you differentiate between block area tops and bottoms? It gets confusing fast.

The other thing that I might recommend from a design standpoint is recognizing the grid container. You see content adhering to it, so I think it should follow that the block area highlight does as well.
andrew replied on at Permalink
andrew
The latter is tough – since not all content actually adheres to the grid container. I do see what you're saying though, since the highlight is full width but most of the block types go into the area with the container so they don't go the full width.

I like your mockup a lot, actually. It would be totally overwhelming if it showed the hot spots on both the top and the bottom though (which you've already said is the case) and blocks can also go between each other as well.

I'm wondering if highlighting all the blocks when in arrange mode like we used to do in 5.6. might not fix this problem as well. Just spitballing (not making any promises) and obviously the irony of this discussion isn't lost on me, but I think the major corner we've turned lately is the idea of showing these activate states only when you actually have a panel open that can drag content into the page.
juddc replied on at Permalink
juddc
I'm just spitballing as well - but I think the idea of cleaning it up and getting solid identifiable areas visible, but still staying uncluttered lends a big advantage to editing. At least as a jumping off point.

I think more a user becomes familiar and delves deeper into using the software, then it may follow that more advanced UI features are more implied than spelled out. "Oh look, I *can* drag this on top of the other one." That sentance would describe how I learned a lot of Illustrator tricks, for example.

I see what you're saying about the containers. That is a toughie.
Phallanx replied on at Permalink
Phallanx
@andrew
Use a gradient fill and you will be able to see if it's individual or spanned.
delorentis replied on at Permalink 2 Attachments
@andrew

I use firefox browser, as you can see in the .jpg attached file there is a little css problem in comparison with other browsers (safari, chrome,…).

You are right with safari browser your experience is clearer but as said in the comments (juddc) it could be better especially regarding the blocks butting up against others (see gif attached file) which are still difficult to achieve.
abra100pro replied on at Permalink
abra100pro
There's a confusion of the icons:
in one situation the mag.glass stands for files and a document stands for sitemap. in another sit. it is vice versa. in a third situation there is a little diagramm icon for the sitemap.
RobertJNL replied on at Permalink
RobertJNL
Hi all,
I've played with 5.7 since it's release and been creating sites with c5 for several years.
Reading this thread made me kind of sad, so here's my experience/vision.

I love the progress into 5.7. Yes, it's a mindtrick on many parts through revised user-interface but i can definitely see the upsides to it.

First of all; it's fully responsive and largely functional on tablets and mobile. Sell that to your clients; definitely the small business owners who run their business during day and actually don't want to bother updating their website; hello couch-work.
Did i say mobile ready? Yes; ever had those clients upload 3mb images? They now get resized and displayed properly, and look at the image editing options they got straight in c5 instead of doing editing before upload.
..this.is.content.management..

Pagetypes / Layouts / Themes; it's just one, really pleasant, improved flexibility step compared to previous setup; really enhances data presentation in a wide range of scenario's. It might not make a lot of sense for a 5 page site; but for the management of content on larger/growing websites; definitely.

Topics + Filtering/Attributes enhancements; very very useful and nicely implemented, sweet!.

User Interface; Changes, AAAAAAAAaaaaa! ;) But it's ok. This is really a 'one size fits all' situation; there won't ever be one. Personally I work in a flow of 'Location' -> 'Place this content'. New C5 has pages & blocks the other way around 'Content' -> 'Pick location'. Which in essence, is correct.. content is more static than the location where it's being presented/managed.

--adding pages--; I don't like composer, but loved adding pages underneath where i was; because as a developer i have overview/data vision. Clients? not so much, composer options/workpath is there for them. Personally i'd still like to teach em data-management/vision, but yeah; all depends on what size website / amount of usage, etc.
--adding blocks--; I'm still not used to this new method. I'd prefer to see the area's outlines instead of drag&search. Maybe also just drag the (+) icon to an area and then pick whatever; and i miss the 'block name search' when adding blocks. For text block; yes I miss c5 image placement in there too.
--area's columns&design--; sweet.

Upgrading 5.6 to 5.7. Yes that's not so sweet and i am not looking forward to those customer conversations. I might give em hints now that upgrading might be some work, but not saying no just yet. 5.7 will mature some more and project-required packages have to come out first to be even able to offer that step, as with many upgrades so far.
Upgrading vs new install; once new 5.7 is matured & your required packages are available. There may just come a (maybe not one-size-fits-all) new development on content exporting through XML (already partly possible). And who knows, we might be able to import that into 5.7. Will it require labor, yes I am sure. Will we have to do full rebuilds? I doubt it.


All in all: I am very happy with the progress and I am sure I'll find more interesting things within conversations or parts I haven't explore yet. This whole release, both C5 as a CMS system and C5 as development framework, is a massive step up for upcoming years. Some ironing to be done in editing functions, but I believe they absolutely lead the right road ahead. Thank you.


Robert


p.s. Where's the gathering function? :)
frz replied on at Permalink
frz
Thanks Robert, couldn't agree with your prospective more. Certainly not perfect, full of big changes, but all in the right direction.

The Gathering block got back burnered as we just try to get through the drudgery of updating our marketplace to support 5.7 and get the basic kinks out. We also have some exciting documentation work and updating our own add-ons to do. Once we can come up for air we've got some big and exciting ideas that will come together with that. Expect to see it stay under the hood in 5.7 releases for a bit until we get it right.
jasteele12 replied on at Permalink
jasteele12
I also agree with most of Robert's comments, but here is my current fear.

concrete5.org has been pushing 5.7 downloads *NOW* without marketplace integration nor add-ons/themes available. I've had several complete n00bs search for download concrete5 - they never even saw the 5.6.3.2 below the fold. Others selected Bluehost and the install fails (the now well-known Fileinfo requirement problem).

Makes me wonder how many new users excited to try c5 download 5.7 and go 'Uh, now what'? Some new users above stated exactly that confusion.

Then they are gone. Maybe forever.

I'm excited as a developer with the code/architectural changes, but I'm afraid of the losses.

Seems like the 5.7 cart was forced out into the market square before the horse was fed and harnessed...
JohntheFish replied on at Permalink
JohntheFish
That pretty much sums up my observation. I can see why 5.7 is being rushed - it needs to get enough support to gain critical mass - but just how much collateral damage is being done in the process?
alanski replied on at Permalink
alanski
+ 1
Certainly get a sense of rushed, and am concerned that the timing and delivery is counter-productive to getting a larger audience / eco-system for 5.7
rockface replied on at Permalink
rockface
I know the # of sites that likely use the user profile pages is very small... but I was very surprised to see 5.7 still uses flash. Please provide an option for none-flash browsers to upload profile avatars... or any other place Flash is used (in the entire world) it needs to be made optional.
Responsive replied on at Permalink
Responsive
If I am correct ( may have read this wrong ) we only really need one page type full.php as the new layout system, with bootstrap installed, gives us the option to style any page how we like ?
or is it still advised to hard code ( create other page types ) areas for speed/load purposes.
andrew replied on at Permalink
andrew
Yep, you can totally make pages that way. It's a good way to go – especially if you don't want to be locked into extremely specific form factors on a page to page basis.
Willough replied on at Permalink
I have been following this thread and coming at concrete5 from the perspective of a new user who happens to be beginning with 5.7.0.4 rather than the vast bulk of others who have extensively used 5.6. As I mentioned elsewhere I found the interface anything but simple, watched instructional videos that did not apply to this version, tried to connect to the marketplace but could not, am not able to utilize but one default template, etc. it's worth mentioning my original install lacked samples altogether furthering confusion. I have since reinstalled 5.7 with samples so it's much clearer but the same basic issues remain; I have also installed 5.6 and see how easy it is and why all the clamor.

Thinking about this I believe the error here was not releasing this as a beta until the developer community had updated themes and add-ons sufficiently before formal release. When Apple releases a new version of its iPhone OS, as it just did, there is a flurry of app updating that occurs in advance and concurrently with the release so that the community of users has a transition paths for usability right away. With 5.7 there is no connection to the marketplace, which I know is a current priority, and clear idea when and if themes, etc will work. It's the sequence of events that is flawed, leaving users to wonder what they will be able to utilize or purchase for their new sites. The attraction of concrete5 is it's simplicity and marketplace neither of which is in place in 5.7. Does it make sense to begin work on 5.6 and face migration difficulty? If yes, will themes purchased for 5.6 work when transitioned or will there be a need to start over? Without a clear path it might make sense for me to look elsewhere unless I know these answers. Just wanted to share this viewpoint from someone beginning with the software now. Even without a migration tool it's still necessary to know whether add-ons purchased for 5.6 will work on a new version with certainty.
daverowland replied on at Permalink
i agree, it should have never come out of BETA, there is so much work to do to make it 'simple' and linking to the marketplace should have been done during the BETA or how have developers worked on it? I am starting to wonder if anyone really did work on this as BETA and just stuck with 5.6

I think someone needs to make a tutorial website theme, make the template with instructions of how to use it, or even as some kind of Add-on that you just uninstall after you got familar.

I know we can install a sample Database but to have it as a marketplace download/delete would actually be good. You could link it up with themes containing video information and whatever really
Maggus replied on at Permalink
How to install Addons? I have this:

Add Functionality
Currently Installed
No packages have been installed.

Awaiting Installation
Nothing currently available to install.

I can´t installing anything...
OKDnet replied on at Permalink
OKDnet
Installing AddOns is done one of two ways.
1- Direct from the marketplace if the site is connected (which you can't do yet because the marketplace connection doesn't yet exist for 5.7. However, this is what the team is working on right now).
2- By manually putting the AddOn package files in the packages folder. However, you don't currently have any 5.7 packages ready.
daverowland replied on at Permalink
Well one week on since my reply, we now have 5.7.1 with marketplace connection, yes! but not ready really, now down to the addon community so I understand.

My issue is I want to take someones website and update to 5.7.1 but want minimum fuss. We are going thru transition state yes but the main concrete 5 website needs to say to download 5.6 for the regular users. It's all developmental and not production to me.

I go to a theme i purchased on the community and what goes through my mind is this ready for 5.7.1? ( I later learned that everything needs redoing to be approved, is that right) So will I be able to tie the previously used theme for this site I am manually upgrading, the URLs the same so will I be able to use it once it's had it's developer tweaks?

I came to Concrete as my re-seller host offers a good way of supporting Concrete, the other attraction was its simple ease of use, but not at the moment. The other thing is the CMS I was using beginning with J and ending in a, they also did not provide an updater routine to go between versions so alienated some of their customer base including me. One thing was that the other CMS just didnt get updated and then some of my sites got hacked due to lacking of security updates but the Dev team were away fixing the newest code.

I hope the dev community rushes out their codes / themes and that the existing 5.6 websites have some opportunity of updating them and its addons and themes, there is no way I can ask customers to fork out more money.
wanderful replied on at Permalink
I am trying to get 5.7 on my hostmonster site. the mojo marketplace only has the 5.6 version. So I downloaded the zip file to my home computer and have ftp'd it over to hostmonster. I have clicked it in the ftp file to be extracted. It says it is extracting, but it has been extracting for 20 minutes. How long does it take to extract? And I am one of those non coders who like a simple interface. Thanks. Hugs, Wanda
wanderful replied on at Permalink
Never mind. It is finally extracted. Now I just gotta figure out how to get to the program to begin to use it. Thanks. Wanda
bhat replied on at Permalink
bhat
There are no free themes for version 5.7? Without a developer's guide I haven't been successful in converting the controller.php for a package install. It is relatively easy to convert a theme directly by following the instructions in theme building videos. I converted Fluid960 to v5.7 and it works but I can't get the package install to work. Had to move the theme to the themes folder and modify it there. With a few mods the controller runs ok and says it installed Fluid960 but there is nothing under Pages and Themes to activate except for Elemental.
Version 5.7.1 is moving in the right direction but so far I wouldn't try to use it for a client website. Maybe it would help if the developers were included in the development cycle of a version (with this many code changes) so a few themes would be available? So far there appears to be only one theme rated for version 5.7!
JohntheFish replied on at Permalink
JohntheFish
There are some on the way, currently under review in the PRB.

However, reviewing them is slow because it suffers the same handicap until the documentation arrives.
gailsedotes replied on at Permalink
I have been having problems switching hosts and going down a subdirectory as many others have. So, I decided on a clean install of the latest version. What a mistake.

I am a pro dev and I dev sites for other companies in concrete5 (5.6). 5.7 is SLOW. Incompatible with everything and did I say SLOW?

Just a colossal waste of half a day.
jasteele12 replied on at Permalink
jasteele12
It is *very* slow compared to 5.6.3.2 and once *again* you can't Visit a page from the Sitemap in a new tab (introduced and fixed in 5.6.?). No Ctrl-click or right-click Open in new Tab available.

You can't see the actual URL anymore (just the #) and you have to *reload* the Sitemap *again* to get back to where you were before. I really don't like over-AJAXy for no reason.

Talk about a slow process...
MrKDilkington replied on at Permalink
MrKDilkington
I am having a significant problem with speed in 5.7. The good news is I think it might be something that can be fixed easier than might be expected.

Give this thread a look over.
http://www.concrete5.org/community/forums/5-7-discussion/c57-slow/...

Some people are having speed issues and others aren't. I use Andrew in my examples. In his Youtube videos, he clicks the Edit Mode button and the page goes into edit mode in less than a second, for me it takes at least 5 seconds to enter and 5 seconds to exit edit mode. He is running his install locally on OSX and I am running mine locally on Win 7 x64.

Are the people running local installs on Windows having an issue?

Please leave a comment in the speed issue thread if you are running slow or fast and what OS you are running.
andrew replied on at Permalink
andrew
Before we stray too much further into the land of anecdotes I just wanted to mention that we've dedicated some resources into improving performance in 5.7.1.1 (which is coming out later this week.) In my experience it's cut the number of database queries used to render the default elemental home page by more than half. So it might be more useful to just wait a couple days.

In general, we try to release first, tune second.
andrew replied on at Permalink
andrew
I have heard of no such issues regarding 5.7 in sub-directories. Obviously, that's something we'd like to fix.

Regarding compatibility – this is an unfortunate consequence of providing support for modern PHP features. As painful as the migration is, it'd be worse to let the code base stagnate and become irrelevant. To a professional web developer, I would hope that that choice would be understandable.
JohntheFish replied on at Permalink
JohntheFish
I have several 5.7.x installs running in various subdirectories of localhost. The only issue I had (still unresolved) was a MySql complaint about a foreign index that I commented out to get round (its in another thread), but don't have a solution for. I doubt if that was anything to do with subdirectories.
barint replied on at Permalink
barint
I visited concrete 5 along time ago but went to wordpress not sure why ...lol but after building a few sites and helping others I decided after much frustration to give concrete 5 another go. I built 2 sites in under a week an really enjoyed it so much that I've turned my back on wordpress.
BUT I downloaded 5.6 and started to get in it and then 5.7 came out and its just not going well for me I'm only saying as anyone new might be put off I was lucky I started with 5.6 so I know what's good about c5 but I think having 5.7 showing as main download could lead to problems and new users giving up.
Second I don't know where to start I'm getting on with 5.6 and there are themes available but do I buy licences for 5.6 or do I hold off till 5.7 is stable ?? Will data display and forms work in 5.7 ? It's feeling a bit like limbo land for a newbie like me at mo as I'm not a programmer .

I'm really trying with 5.7 and grateful for all your hard work as I can see potential :-)
bhat replied on at Permalink
bhat
Time to weigh in one more time.
Concrete5 core team put your ears on! It is way past time to get some developer documentation out in the world. If it isn't perfect we can all live with that. Once the developer's have enough information they (we) will probably start making things happen. We can help carry the ball.

Last time I looked there was one free theme which is very minimal. To the core team. The best intentions are great but isn't it a bit strange to leave the developer's hanging and then expect the users to get up to speed in version 5.7?

$block = Block::getByName('My_Site_Name');
Gives us the scrapbook error. Site Name is gone but the method still exists. So what parameters are ok? Same thing with Config. It works with "concrete.site" but that parameter just appeared through some magic Forum Topic. There are many, many classes and methods and should the poor suffering developers figure out where the class aliases exist, what parameters are valid, what methods exist and then the proper parameters, etc?

It is way past time to help the developers get started. If the core team was doing there job there should be a hundred upgraded themes by now. Isn't user documentation putting the cart before the horse? Doesn't the developer help the user upgrade or bring new users into the system? The time is NOW. Give the developers something even if it isn't perfect. Have developer conversations and discussions and talks and videos. Bring us in from the cold...... please!
OKDnet replied on at Permalink
OKDnet
@bhat
I'm not trying to totally dismiss what you're saying, but have you seen...
http://www.concrete5.org/about/blog/concrete5-sightings/5-7-develop...
and
http://www.concrete5.org/documentation/using-concrete5-7...

Add-ons seem to be coming quicker than themes. Last I checked (just now) there are 6 themes (hey, that's 6 times more than you said </grin> ) and several pages of add-ons (including a new one I just bought that is 5.7 only and looks to be extremely helpful and versatile...http://www.concrete5.org/marketplace/addons/block-designer... )
bhat replied on at Permalink
bhat
Sorry if I omitted the words "free themes". Judging from the free theme I don't know if I want to purchase a theme at this early stage.

Thanks also, I have looked at the video on building a theme from html and it is helpful. The Add-on documentation is for me marginally helpful.

Not to continue to argue but there is a lot more detail on the relationship of page_theme.php to the theme, lots of things removed so code from older versions fail, namespacing is confusing especially with the almost but not quite relationship to file directory structure.

Personally, I don't have enough information to modify a theme to client specs with the existing documentation. I can certainly play in localhost and have been doing so. However, I would not risk providing a client with version 5.7 when I have so many questions. I'm trying to help and not create angst. The reason I am pushing is that I would love to suggest Concrete5 to a client. But without a little more information I could fail miserably. It appears that a lot of us are a bit confused. I'm not attacking but rather begging. If you understand this new version from that documentation how about creating a substantial free theme which is a great way to demonstrate this product and this version?
Veronikan replied on at Permalink
Veronikan
+1
madesimplemedia replied on at Permalink
madesimplemedia
Been very busy, but hoping to contribute to the 5.7 themes section very soon.
hajonolte replied on at Permalink
hajonolte
to be honest: this thread is sooooo long that i did not read every post. sorry.

i used C5 since early days and i was verry happy to have found this piece of code. i followed a lot of CMS-systems over the year (mambo -> yoomla), typo3 where every new version was completely different and so on.

it´s so easy to be angry about a new version, but your 5.7.-version is a step back. or it is something totally different. i convinced so many people about your work with 5.6. but this time - only having one step from 5.6. to 5.7. - i do not understand what happened. i do not understand the whole system. and i am so dissapointed that i am unwilling to follow all the discussions here. do you understand this?

you did great work, but I DID NOT UNDERSTAND THIS AT ALL. i am sorry.

earlier this day i read a posting about your 5.7-version and thought: this person is not open for new things and that he should stop following C5. but after first tests with C5 5.7. i am sorry to have to aggree to the posting. schade. schade. schade.
hajonolte replied on at Permalink
hajonolte
to reply to my own posting: did you follow IMPRESSPAGES? new upadtes and everybody feels AT HOME!
pulutose replied on at Permalink
I was using concrete5 for years and was very happy to work with it.
In my opinion 5.7 is a very bad move.
There was a very nice growing tree and now you cut it , trying to grow another one...

All addons, themes, websites are now thrown to the garbage.

-Redactor sucks
-adding a new page takes too much time
-editable areas now invisible
-adding blocks very hard to work, cant drag it in the place I want
-5.7 works slower
-those fancy menu slides in and out sometimes stops working
-dashboard is not handy no more
and so on... lots of cons
annekeh replied on at Permalink
annekeh
Pff today I started with my first 5.7 website, after building concrete5 websites for over 5 years / 100+ websites. And I am frustrated! Every change in css gives a blank page so I have to clear cache. You would say changing cache off would help, nope it doesn't.
Every change in page layout also gives a blank page and every going to a new page, exactly... a blank page. I never cleared and changed my cache so many times as today.

Normaly building a complete theme and website takes me up to a half day, now it takes me more then double, euh maybe triple. I counted on a learning curve, but I already knew how to clear my cache...

I know the C5 team worked hard on this, but at this point it costs me very much effort to stay positive.
annekeh replied on at Permalink
annekeh
To nuance my previous post. After removing all the .less features and files, I can make my theme without any problems. Less is not more in this case...
madesimplemedia replied on at Permalink
madesimplemedia
How did you turn off less?
andrew replied on at Permalink
andrew
Would you mind private messaging me the theme with the troublesome .less file? We've had reports of this blank white page from people but haven't been able to reproduce it ourselves.

Thanks for taking the time to post back, even when frustrated. That's helpful.
annekeh replied on at Permalink
annekeh
I just removed all less files and placed everything in one normal css.
madesimplemedia replied on at Permalink
madesimplemedia
Thanks for the info, going to play around with this myself too.
Kiesel replied on at Permalink
Oh yes, I dislike LESS so much, makes everything much more complicated and a hassle. I'll try to do the same.
MichaelG replied on at Permalink
MichaelG
Only because "cache" can refer to two different things - are you referring to your browser cache? Or your Concrete5 cache? Because obviously, you may want to go to system settings->cache settings and turn off all your theme/less caching there while developing a theme.
annekeh replied on at Permalink
annekeh
Concrete cache. And no, turning off cache didn't help. Obviously I tried that... I also found a solution through the forum that you should turn cache on with the blank page problem. That also didn't work out for me...
Kiesel replied on at Permalink
It's great! It's horrible!

Sums it about up. I like a lot of it, but the bugs and certain things are really annoying. It's like starting from new again....

I can't set a link to go on "_blank" in the editor, creating a new page is suddenly a hassle unlike before. Theme options are really in a weird hidden place, certain tasks now take way longer than before, bugs bugs bugs everywhere, the list could continue for an hour....

But the good thing is that all the annoying stuff can be fixed rather easy - and I have high hopes it will. I really like the rest. I just hope it gets fixed faster. The first 5 patches did a lot but not enough yet.
annekeh replied on at Permalink 4 Attachments
annekeh
Another day with 5.7. I do get accross some issues. Don't know if it is because I don't understand everything yet, so maybe some help here and there.

Excuse me for not having the exact names of the pages, I use the dutch version and have to guess the original english words.

- On some pages when I try to edit my text, I get a large empty box. In Html-mode it is still visable (see screenshots). My composer in this case is complete empty (see also my point below). When i edit the html, it gets updated. But my clients don't know html...

- I use the left-column layout. I found out I had to add another pagetype (which is strange because I can see it onder settings, design, layout). I did add it, but it gives an empty composer. When I want to change the pagename (now it is untitled) I have to go to attributes to change, then I have to go to location to change where it should come.

I think it would be great if the making of the pages became more simple. Make a page and give it directly a name and location. Now it takes me more effort to make a new page, while before is was so fast and simple.

Please do not take the road with lots of features. That is in most of the cases the wrong turn. My users liked the simplicity of 5.6. And me as a developer could always modify as much as I wished.

I hope someone can help me with my editing issues. I do have 6 websites in waiting line to built, so hopefully I get the hang of it soon...
codifyio replied on at Permalink
I have only started working with c5 as of the 5.7.2 release and I like it a lot. I read this discussion a couple weeks ago and installed 5.6 to see if it was really that much better and can say that I think 5.7.2 is leaps and bound beyond 5.6. I guess it is just a matter of what you're used to. My only problems so far have been the lack of documentation pertaining to this release specifically and a bunch of bugs.
Wanna change the 'View User Attributes' permission? Nope, just everlasting spinner..
Wanna change to a different preset in design->settings->customize (and have it work for the whole site)? Think again. You're doing it on each individual page...
Just little things that I'm sure will be fixed at some point. Oh, and the page designer mode is really wonky. It often doesn't make the changes or simply gets stuck forcing a page refresh.

BUT, Using C5 is already making the current project I'm working on MUCH easier, much faster, and will make it much easier to maintain.

It really never occurred to me to not just build a tiny CMS when I need one. Thanks to everyone working on C5. It's great.
andrew replied on at Permalink
andrew
Thanks – just checked in a fix for the View User attributes issue. Was a really easy fix and will be out in 5.7.2.2. The page design update across the entire site currently doesn't override pages where you've already set custom designs for just that page – that's a bug and we'll hopefully get it fixed in time for 5.7.2.2 (https://github.com/concrete5/concrete5-5.7.0/issues/1530). Thanks for the feedback.
NKC replied on at Permalink
I tried 5.7 when I needed to update my ecommerce site, found it unfriendly too buggy beyond my capabilities and no ecommerce add on.
In reading this long tale of woe for many, I am glad I switched to wordpress and woocommerce
There is still no ecommerce!
There must be some head scratching, was this poorly planned.
It seems a shame I praised C5 to many as an easy to learn platform, I could no longer recommend it
mkly replied on at Permalink
mkly
eCommerce is definitely in the works, pm or email me for details.

Regards,
Mike

Edit: To clarify, I'm not talking about the concrete5 core team eCommerce Add-On.
okapi replied on at Permalink
okapi
I like the concept of 5.7 with real insite editing and drag&drop support for blocks, but i think even 5.7.2.1 is still not ready for productive use, and especially the current lack of compatible addons is a huge drawback.

I like the concept of 5.7 because i think, it's the future of content management systems for building and maintaining websites.
But concrete5 is not the only system that is looking into the future. ImpressPages is following a very similar, if not the same concept, and they did it since 2011, albeit at a relatively basic level. Even the german TYPO3 has started a project with a similar aproach, named TYPO3 Neos, whitch came out just recently. And there might be other projects. Of course the conrete5 team knows all that and much more and it seems they just did not want to wait any longer. But i think Concrete5 5.7 was published to early, in an adolescent state, and addon developers had not enough time or interest in adapting their code fast enough. The sad thing is, while we now have version 5.7.2.1, still there seems to be very little enthusiasm among addon developers for making at least the most popular and essential addons ready for use with 5.7.

Third point is, currently there is no way for migrating existing websites build on concrete5 5.6.x to concrete5 5.7.x and maybe there never will be one. So, one has to rebuild an existing website from scratch to make it run on 5.7, while this actually can't be done in most cases, because of the lack of compatible addons.
appliculture replied on at Permalink
appliculture
Could not agree more.

5.7 should still be in beta for a simple reason: 5.7 is not ready for production! (no multilanguage, no ecommerce, still buggy, no auto-update, very few addons, ..)
It look like it is ready as it's released on the homepage of concrete5.org but then it's more difficult to say to your customer that he should start to invest in a version in 5.6 and maybe next year re-invest for updating to the 5.7.x version.

I know that the core team is working really hard on this project and the team is not big as Wordpress team but I have to say it's not fast enough for a ready to production release. Everyday since 3 weeks I go and look on Github and I can see the number of issue growing and the milestones postponed.. Sometime I can see several days without an issue to be fixed (at least on github). 1 or 2 addons/theme are realeased every week... This is not enough.

I'm sure you know that but it's in your interest to go faster in improving 5.7 otherwise you'll loose a lot a fan/customers.

I love and use Concrete5 for many many years now but if things are not going to change in the next months I'll have to look to another CMS. Not because I want to change but because my customer don't wan't to invest in something that is not ready for production.

Expectations are different with a beta version and a suppose-to-be ready for production version.

With peace.
m.
ptityop replied on at Permalink
Well definitly a big change but a real shame that something like internationalization was not taken into account before promoting it as a version ready for production !
abra100pro replied on at Permalink
abra100pro
IMHO 5.7 is not ready for production. I get an average of 2 bugs each 10 minutes I edit pages.
abra100pro replied on at Permalink
abra100pro
I made a screencast of me getting around in c5.7 on a local installation.
Sorry, the tone is sometimes too rude and low volume, sometimes I was wrong - it was almost 3am - but it is basically what I think of the UX backend:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1829323/FileChute/c57fb.mp4... (227MB, 20+mins.)
bhat replied on at Permalink
bhat
I follow this forum and want to chime in one more time. Yes I have been negative and have changed my personal focus back to WordPress. Confession time.

In my humble opinion, the biggest mistake was to change the core without bringing in the developers early in the game. A simple discussion group would have been magic!
Mistakes have been made so what do we do now?

I'm not going to walk away. To me the biggest problem is documentation. It is not an accident that add-ons and themes are not being developed. If you like Concrete5 like I do then let's step up and help the core team!
Here is a challenge! Many of us developers are procedural php developers and we were thrust into this new world abruptly! OOPs.

I look at the developer documentation and get tired of things like "don't use greedy styles". Why must the developer work around the core css? Maybe admin css could use something like element-dot-class and protect their own css?

Here is our challenge. I'll put up personal online documentation. We can also use the forum to create new documentation by selective discussions. Every time we solve a problem let's just post the solution in the forum. Let our third party documentation get to the important stuff we need to develop those new add-ons and themes. I care less about MVC, OOP, namespace and other technology bull stuff! I care about my client website. Talk about page_theme.php and how we apply that in our themes. Let the core team focus on application software development and maybe the rest of us developer's can focus on theme development. In the video tutorial the reason to choose core jquery was a side note. Personally, I don't want to figure out if core jquery or Bootstrap 3 should be selected or whether I should use my theme's version. I don't want to make decisions on whether it messes up core admin features. I want to develop my theme and not worry about stepping on core admin css with my "greedy styles". Enough said.

I promise to help document in my spare time. The core team appears to be on planet Application. Developers are on planet Reality. For those of us on Planet Reality, let's help instead of complain. Help create documentation that works. I think the lack of themes and add-ons is not the fault of the developer's but rather the lack of specific documentation!

In conclusion, the Codex is fantastic and if only we had something half as good. But more than half of what I learn regarding WordPress is not from management but from third party developer's. They mean the world to me! All of us Developer's can focus on specific documentation to help build a successful client website! Sorry. It's Thanksgiving so hey, forgive me for a turkey comment if that is how this comment appears to you.
Kiesel replied on at Permalink
Eck... I thought first it's really cool, but the longer I work with it the more I'm annoyed with it. Slows me down so much! Even aside from the tons of bugs. I've been so much faster before!

It was so easy! Adding or changing a menu point was the same if inside the back-end or in the front-end. Why do I need to jump now trough so many loops and hooks to change these things and can do in the back-end only certain things??? Whoever decided that this was a good idea was clearly drunk or drugged.

I'm not sure what to use now. I would like to use the old concrete5, but I cannot, because it can't be upgraded. But I also don't want to use the new one till it's much much better!
abra100pro replied on at Permalink
abra100pro
Have a look in a few (6-9) months. Until then use c5.6.x and inform your customers. That's what we do. One customer concretely liked our open, honest information and goes with c56, aware of having to jump on 5.x (maybe 5.8,...) one day.

Knowing that the core team is a bunch of very clever, highly competent programmers/undertakers I wonder what made them decide to go public on the big stage with c5.7.
pvernaglia replied on at Permalink
pvernaglia
I would not agree that you should wait five or six months before building with 5.7. It really depends on the complexity of the site and if the existing blocks will accommodate your clients needs. There are also opportunities to develop custom blocks for projects.

Overall I find people who are new to concrete5 are very happy with 5.7, folks who used 5.6 do you have a little bit of a struggle. Personally, the more work I do with it the better I like it.
ptityop replied on at Permalink
I think as well that sometimes, one must not forget that you are getting all this for free ... I myself realized at some point that comments like "i don't understand how they could not think about doing this, including this etc ..." does sound a bit displaced ... and I personally will try to control the tone of all future comments and make sure that any critic stays constructive and does not sound like "guys you have to be stupid to not have thought about that or that". Yes there are quite a few bugs, but the improvements are quite impressive and certainly represent hours of work most of us would not be able to do,
mhawke replied on at Permalink
mhawke
I disagree with the 'free' part. This is a partnership and one of the main reasons concrete5 has become what it is today is due to the bartering of time between the core team and the outside developers. Right now, 5.7 has seriously disrupted this balance and we are hearing the frustration that is normal between partners who have different agendas and different business models. Open source projects are supposed to be messy and full of noise and the best projects listen to the noise and pull out the nuggets of truth that move things forward. Speaking dis-respectfully does not help build relationships but it's important that we all try to see the point that is being raised in every post, regardless of how eloquently the point is being raised.
abra100pro replied on at Permalink
abra100pro
I perfectly agree with this post from mhawke
getsupport replied on at Permalink
getsupport
+1
philipemerson replied on at Permalink
philipemerson
I've been trying to get a client project finished and didn't read the warnings about 5.7 until I'd finished the site to the point that I needed to bring in my custom block assets.

Then everything fell apart. The C5 team haven't provided any clear information on how to get my old block assets working (their 'how-to' guides are a few hints at best) and now I'm going to be up really late tonight rebuilding everything.

I understand the need to change the way the underlying core worked and I like the reduction in the number of folders and unlike some here, I actually like the new interface changes.
What I don't like is having to rebuild an entire site to meet a deadline because I naively believed that a point release (5.6 to 5.7) would just be tweaks and improvements, not a completely different programming model. Surely such a monumental change in direction should merit a full release number such as 6.0 as a clear warning to all?

I think I'll be using 5.6 until I can find an alternative CMS because I don't think I can trust the C5 team to complete the developer documentation it so desperately needs any time soon.
OKDnet replied on at Permalink
OKDnet
I saw this coming!

You are right! "A point release..." should just be tweaks and improvements, not a completely different programming model. Early on before the release of 5.7 there was talk in the forums about the version number. Apparently because the CMS is called Concrete5, (not Concrete), combined with a slight error in judgement (IMHO), we have this version numbering system that is different from what everyone in the software world uses and is used too. So your assumption and the resulting pain is understandable (and was bound to happen, and will likely happen again to others). However, it's so unnecessary. I said it then and I'll say it again now. Great, keep the name. No problem. That's the name, and this new version should not be Concrete6 (which I AGREE they shouldn't do for branding and all sorts of reasons). Just change the version numbering! As follows.

The last version was Concrete5 version number 6 (with point releases all the way up to 6.3.2
Now we have Concrete5 version 7 (already with point releases up to 7.2.1)

Aren't I brilliant? </sarcasm>
Seriously though, all we're doing is ADDING A SPACE (and maybe a "v" or "version" so it reads Concrete5 version 7.2.2 when this next round of fixes is released).

Come on @frz, this would be the EASIEST fix you ever did! End of discussion, and no more pain and confusion!
Hypocrite replied on at Permalink
Hypocrite
This sounds like a very good suggestion.
okapi replied on at Permalink
okapi
Makes sense!
annekeh replied on at Permalink
annekeh
A positive note here. I just put the second 5.7 website live and my client was very happy! Even without the standard 'website-lesson' I normaly give and a manual (I have to make it in dutch) she could easily edit her site.

Note: I work with digital-handicapped clients.

I did came across some bugs and work-arounds, but for me it is a done-deal to stay in 5.7. If you try and get used to it, you don't want to go back.
andrew replied on at Permalink
andrew
That's great news. Good to hear.
abra100pro replied on at Permalink
abra100pro
<update>
I see you updated the docs - i must admit, I didn't check there for a while. Hope to find more infos for designers/developers as well. So there it the question left where best to follow the development of 5.7
</update>

What is the best way for me as webdesigner to follow the information and share valuable ideas/feedback with the core?

The core says this is an official release to build new websites on. Could you please let me know where I can find:
- Enduser Documentation
- Designer Documentation (getting started with Installation and themes, for instance)
- Developer Documentation

Is there one place on this website to start from? Honestly, I didn't find it. There are bits here and there, like this thread. But such a huge release surely has a proper information for the community - as said: I'm a bit lost and glad for any hints to get up and running.

Thanks
okapi replied on at Permalink
okapi
Hi,
actually i don't understand your question. Have you ever tried to follow the link "Docs" on the top navigation of this website? There you can find "Editors Guide" and "Developer Guide" with a huge amount of information related to Concrete5.7!

Best,
Michael
abra100pro replied on at Permalink
abra100pro
Yes, I updated my post after I found this being based on c5.7, now. didn't give it a glimpse for a while.

Sorry for the fuzz - however: "finding information on concrete5.org - I like to live dangerously, too" - to make use of a meme. ;-)
abra100pro replied on at Permalink 1 Attachment
abra100pro
Is there a way to change the colour scheme / font of the backend?
My customers won't be able to read that. In fact, I'm 46 and I have to look hard to be able to read this.

Thanks in advance.
Pluto replied on at Permalink
Pluto
+1
danielgwood replied on at Permalink
My "two" cents as someone who only started using Concrete at 5.7 (I did start reading this thread from start to finish, but got bored around the halfway mark, so apologies if I repeat what others have already said):

- Pushing 5.7 early - It took me a while to realise how new 5.7 was. I don't think it's immediately apparent to a new user how bleeding edge this version is, and that it's consequently a bit of a gamble. I'm glad it worked out in my case, very few worries. Though I don't have a stake in it, I'm actually glad you introduced some breaking changes in this version - all too often products like this get stuck in the past trying to avoid issues for existing users, so to boldy rearchitect things is great.

- That explanation of the difference between Page Types and Page Templates from @frz is brilliant, wish I'd seen that when I first started.

- Editing - I like the drag and drop, and the way pages are built up. As a natural CMS hater (I like to write my own code) I was expecting to have to cheat a lot and manually edit HTML or worse yet, change things in the database. In the 30 or so pages I've written in the last few days, I haven't properly cheated once. I'm pretty confident my clients will be able to use C5 without much fuss, which is great news.

- Redactor...I see from your forums this is a divisive one. While it is missing one or two things I consider important (undo/redo for example), and the image controls are less intuitive than C5 in general, I still think the cut-down UI will be a lot easier for my client to use than say, CKEditor. As a developer I'm keen to try writing a few plugins for it once I have time - apparently this is a lot better!

- Speed - C5 is a bit slow. I don't know if this has always been a thing, but it is a concern for me as some of my users will be editing from Madagascar, where the net connection is often little faster than dialup. However, if the caching settings work as well as they promise to, this should really help and I'm keen to see how it goes. If not.. well, I like C5 enough that I will find a way..

- Themes, blocks and packages are all pretty neat. Given it's a new release the docs are a bit sparse, but I was able to work it out by downloading other blocks, poking around the forums and the core of C5. Hoping to release some of the more complicated blocks as packages at some point too.

- I have stumbled across one or two minor interface glitches which I'm hoping to investigate properly when I'm less behind...with that in mind, where is the best place for users to report bugs? You have two bug trackers, one on GitHub and another here...neither indicates which is preferred.
abra100pro replied on at Permalink
abra100pro
So, I'm glad to admit, that 5.7.3 is a huge improvement.

Also: A huge thanks to the documentation - it is now complete and helpful as never before - great work! I guess my recommendation to wait 6-9 months has shrunk a quantum leap.

BTW: I tried until 5.7.2 on MAMP with webkit-browsers - it seemed to have (cache-?)issues I don't have on the linux-servers of my hoster. From 5.7.2 onwards I didn't give it another try on MAMP.
Cahueya replied on at Permalink
Thank you for 5.7!

At first I was shy about being too optimistic with the new UI, whole structure reworked and everything somehow different.

I've played around with 5.7.3 a while now and I really like the workflow and how things can be done. I have not come across critical bugs yet and until now, always found a way of doing things I wanted to do.

And thank you for ELEMENTAL! It is SO easy to build a responsive theme from it! Many projects will be based on it I believe!

I've found some Issues that restrict some usecases (Composer not working properly or strange to set up = no Blog without extra add-on), but I am very sure they will be solved in the coming releases.

Now I am just waiting for my favourite addons to go 5.7 :)
abra100pro replied on at Permalink
abra100pro
Aehm... what Do you mean with "ELEMENTAL"? - googled it, missed it.
Cahueya replied on at Permalink
The standard theme that you see when installing c5 5.7 :)

basically just a bootstrap-theme with responsive grid and fontawesome icons in it. But very useful, I find :)
abra100pro replied on at Permalink
abra100pro
Ah, thanks.
alsastre replied on at Permalink
Is there a way to obtain the old version(5.6), i have been looking for it and can't find it. I like 5.7 but the content editor is much worse than the 5.6. The drag and drop option is cool but not much useful, in the previous version you choose a block, select the type much better and faster.
mesuva replied on at Permalink
mesuva
Visit http://www.concrete5.org/get-started... and scroll a *bit* further down the page.
alsastre replied on at Permalink
Ok that's my fault. Lol
Thx.
Before changing to the previous version, is there a way of in the content editor choose padding, and options of and image like inline text and things like that? Or a way of using the old editor style in the new version.
abra100pro replied on at Permalink 2 Attachments
abra100pro
IMHO there is a lot more clicking and interaction in 5.7's backend.
Also: monitor space is not used optimally - see screenshot: a whole screen for one single option - this "prob" can be found at several places.

For editors it has become cleaner, but nevertheless more complicated: an edit-button and a plus-button (that changes to a keylock after second click on it? undocumented?) are asked a lot of understanding. Also the change from 5.6 to 5.7: not being able to add directly to a block by clicking it is a step back, I think.

The logic within the left sidebar asks for a high competence of an internet-savvy person. The click back on top in a submenu, for instance is not only hardly visible, but also too distracted by other elements there.

And please: change the contrast of the left sidebar content without forcing us to do it every single time in an override - it is simply not readable by many folks out there.

And something I can't figure out: make a new page and assign it to a place in the tree - no idea, composer is empty... is it a bug?

It's up to you, the coreteam, to ignore some of all our inputs and consider other inputs to be integrated/changed - I hope you really stay focussed on to get the best CMS in the market.
maar replied on at Permalink
maar
Hi All,

Just want to say that Concrete5 Denmark is now converted to Concrete5 5.7.3.1. First off we thought that we would have a lot of problems, but it came out very well - We think...

After doing this migration (there was some learning to do), I can only say one thing. This is so cool - I simply love the way Concrete5 5.7 is coming together. It is really cool to use the new page type configuration and it really helps to get things in system.

The sitehttp://www.concrete5.dk also got a new theme (we converted a html theme to a concrete5 5.7 theme from scratch). The theme building was a little hard in the beginning, but after a lot of swearing it actually came together all right (thanks to Andrews nice videos).

So from us here in Denmark - Concrete5 5.7 is just cool.

/Michael
Cahueya replied on at Permalink
Beautiful Site!
Kiesel replied on at Permalink
I agree with that. We had so many problems with the first versions of 5.7, but now... now it gets to the point where I'm catching myself so often with "wow's" and "oh's".

It's superfun to program sites now or to fill it with content. I'm having a blast and I want to say a BIG thank you to the concrete5 developers for all the hard work they put into it. A big big big thank you!
Hypocrite replied on at Permalink
Hypocrite
The new site looks really nice.

Would be cool if all the national sites of concrete5 would use a similar design. I really like the flag idea behind the concrete5 logo and that would work really nicely for example with the Finnish concrete5 site.

It would be also cool if the sites could have a similar structure. Of course all the national websites cannot offer the same services but we could then modify the navigation on based on what we can offer.
maar replied on at Permalink
maar
Thanks for the nice words...

We actually already made a logo template with a few flags, and we also tried to make them official (but no response from core :-( ). But I would be willing to supply the template.

About the theme - The theme is actually a html theme bought on ThemeForest and we converted it to concrete5 5.7. Not all is converted to concrete5 theme (fx. the revolution slider is hard coded in to the page template for the home page). A lot of the functionality of the original theme would be nice to package up in the future, but we do not find our selves good enough to complete the concrete5 5.7 blocks/packages yet.

But, again thanks for the kind words...

/Michael
abra100pro replied on at Permalink
abra100pro
Big compliments! Modern, clear, beautiful with the right amount of animation. :-)
maar replied on at Permalink
maar
And to you, thanks for the nice words as well...
andrew replied on at Permalink
andrew
Your site looks great.
maar replied on at Permalink
maar
Thanks for that. Appreciated your time to look at our site and answer this thread.
madesimplemedia replied on at Permalink
madesimplemedia
Just started rebuilding my website in 5.7 and I'm really loving it. The UI is so nice, massive thanks to the team for creating such a lovely CMS, my clients are going love it!
Removing all the popups has made it nicer to use and there are some great new features here too.

Haven't encountered any issues so far, other than my lack of time to finish my new site! :)

Cheers
Dave
qualitas replied on at Permalink
I don't recommand any one to developp under Concrete 5 before stability, database backup working and tech support available.

-After 1 month web site was done and running well, data base crash by themself without any modification except upgrade.
-I uplaod old backup and Concrete 5 don't see any page.
-No tech support.

My worst nightmare ever!

Web site is down for 2 weeks and I just think about doing it all again with Drupal or Site Builder!

Details here:https://www.concrete5.org/index.php?cID=705438...
OKDnet replied on at Permalink
OKDnet
Ummm, Concrete5 is Open Source. Buy a commercial product if you want tech support. It sounds like you'd be better off.
maar replied on at Permalink
maar
I totally agree with OKDnet...

I have installed Concrete5 more than a thousand times. I got some issues ons in a while, but always solvable.

What baffles me is when some user has a problem and then go to this forum and shout a lot. And even try to scare every one (especially newcomers) not to use Concrete5. That is just not OK. Concrete5 is a very positive experience for most people and I am sorry for you.

But if this is the way you want it! - Then Drupal og Site Builder is probably better for you!

If you expect any one here to help you, then try to tackle your problem in a constructive way and try to give some useful information about your problem.

/Michael out...
ramonleenders replied on at Permalink
ramonleenders
+ 1 for the 2 comments above. If you have problems, try to sort them out and not shout and say DO NOT USE this or that. Probably also some server/hosting/user problem instead of Concrete5 specific ones, according to the story. But well, you can always use other content management systems, you are not required to use Concrete5.

P.s. I don't have any problems with 5.6 nor 5.7.

My 2 cents.

A happy C5 user.
AliceTtr replied on at Permalink
AliceTtr
Concrete5 is just a niche market, wordpress rules 60%.
Do not use concrete5 anymore for my clients because the 5.7 lacks add-ons and themes.
The whole 5.7 UI is a big mistake. Instead of front page editing it's left, front page editing.
Looks like concrete5 is going down hill. Shame!
Kiesel replied on at Permalink
I come from Wordpress. And Concrete5 is so much better in every way.
iFX replied on at Permalink
I agree that there's a lot of things that I much prefer in C5 as opposed to WP... hence the reason I'm still monitoring these C5 forums - even though I'm no longer a C5 user.

But it's currently not possible for me to use C5 - unless things have changed??

What's everyone using for ecommerce in C5 v5.7 ?

Having to switch from C5 was NOT something I wanted to do, but after wasting more than 6 months I had no choice ... I'd written off WP years ago, but it's improved so much since I last used it, and in the end I'd just wished I'd switched sooner. Sure, there are things I miss from C5, but as it turns out, there's actually a lot of things about WP that have sped my work up a lot.

I'm still interested to see if a decent ecommerce solution appears for C5, so I'm still hoping, just not holding my breath anymore ;)

I miss C5's version control :(
MrKDilkington replied on at Permalink
MrKDilkington
Hi iFX,

An ecommerce add on was approved last week.
https://www.concrete5.org/marketplace/addons/ecommerce-with-snipcart...

There is also an official concrete5 ecommerce add on on the 5.7 roadmap.

"Sure, there are things I miss from C5, but as it turns out, there's actually a lot of things about WP that have sped my work up a lot."

What were the things that helped you increase your work speed? Depending on what they are, maybe they can be made into add ons or feature enhancements.
iFX replied on at Permalink
Hey! it's Karl! ;)

Thanks for the info re: ecommerce, I'll keep an eye out for other solutions though, as all of my clients so far haven't been interested in 3rd-party hosted service style ecommerce solutions (even though it looks like that's becoming the more common approach these days), they want all their data on their own servers.

EDIT: having just re-read the Snipcart info... the products ARE stored on the local site, it's just the checkout and payment process that's external? hmmm... I might have to have a closer look at that later... thanks again for the heads up :)

Re: WP, the main things that have helped me out speed-wise is probably just the multitude of add-ons and themes that tend to just work without any hacking required - some sites have been as simple as fill in the blanks ;)

WooCommerce for eg. did everything I needed and worked the way the client wanted it to work - out of the box. No code changes required... as opposed to the time I wasted on C5's core ecommerce add-on - trying to get it to do what my clients wanted - and then never even ending up using it on a single site... was a little frustrating.

99% of the sites people ask me to do are ecommerce with the rest at least requiring some form of ecommerce/payment processing... actually that's not correct, there is one site that doesn't need ecommerce - but I'm constantly being berated by a couple of the users as to why I didn't use WP :( so annoying... my main reason for C5 on that site was because we initially needed version control or at least the ability to undo certain people's blog posts etc and have an approval process, which I set up and it worked well in C5 v5.6 (though that's no longer required).

I think if I could update that site with 5.7, they wouldn't be complaining anymore, but the company won't pay me to update it and there's no upgrade from 5.6 to 5.7 so it's not something I could be bothered doing for nothing ;)

How has everyone found 5.7 updates? Are they more foolproof than they were in 5.6?
Kiesel replied on at Permalink
Made multiple updates on multiple sites with 5.7 to the current 5.7.3.1 version and so far everything went as smooth as possible.

I can understand the frustration with E-Commerce. Had my fair share of that. It's THE weak spot of concrete5. We use other systems as well if someone asks for an ecommerce solution. Luckily that doesn't happen often - in our case.
iFX replied on at Permalink
Thanks Jason, that's good to hear re: 5.7 updates :)

hmmm... maybe I will take a few days to update that 5.6 site (with the WP whingers ;) ) to 5.7 as it's a few versions behind the latest 5.6.x release - only because every time I've tried to update to the latest 5.6 it fails and takes the site down... requiring me to manually undo the update to get it back up and running - not sure what I'm doing wrong, but C5 5.6 updates have never worked for me, and I've always had to stick with the version it was created on :S

Sorry a bit OT... but that might be a good excuse for me to redo the site in 5.7 - the fact that it's currently stuck on an older 5.6.x version that probably has some security issues fixed in later 5.6.x releases... OK, I might have to have a play with 5.7 this weekend ;)
MrKDilkington replied on at Permalink
MrKDilkington
Hi iFX,

I've had the same experience as JasonStone. I choose to use the overwrite method to upgrade.
http://www.concrete5.org/community/forums/5-7-discussion/upgrade-pr...

Regarding updates, have you considered copying the site and doing the update on the copy? This would allow you to check for any update compatibility issues without risking your live site. I know Wordpress and Drupal developers who routinely do this because of inevitable bugs inherent in CMS upgrades.

JohntheFish wrote an excellent How-To on the subject. His approach creates a copy on the server to test on.
http://www.concrete5.org/documentation/how-tos/developers/organise-...

I can understand the frustration of not having the same selection of add-ons that Wordpress does and that concrete5 often needs to be customized. But customization is one of concrete5's biggest assets. The code base is clean and modern, especially with 5.7, so you can create highly customized solutions (which I heard is a big challenge with Wordpress).
okapi replied on at Permalink
okapi
I totally agree. I think customization is one of the most important points, and that's why i think it doesn't make much sense to compare the two systems with each other, they are just too different. It depends on what one wants to build. The concept of overrides for almost everything in Concrete5 is second to none!
iFX replied on at Permalink
Sorry Alice, could you just clarify what you mean by:
"Instead of front page editing it's left, front page editing." ?

Thanks
okapi replied on at Permalink
okapi
Same question here, i just thought i my English skills were to weak to understand that strange phrase.
Cahueya replied on at Permalink
I don't like how the last few arguments turn this thread into a "yay or nay"-discussion.

There are serious issues with v5.7 that need to and will be adressed in the soon future (hope so!).

Many of the critics here, like UI design is just a question of taste. Many people disapproved the new design in v5.6, many people now disapprove the design of v5.7. This seems to be very normal.

Myself, I liked all the UI steps that happened so far and after some time of adapting and playing around, i got it all sorted.

The fact that there are only few add-ons and themes for 5.7 yet, to me is a pseudo-argument. Use it more, request more and developers have a higher motivation to make things 5.7-ready. Done. If that add-on you need it not available yet - use 5.6, it is good and stable and very flexible. Or wait a little longer and pinch the developer of your favor to move on.

BUT on the other hand, there are some issues with v5.7 that need to be mentioned as long as they are not fixed.

Like the "cannot perform database backups"-thing. Last time I tried to make a DB backup with 5.7.3, I got some message that this functionality is not available yet. But you only get to see this once you hit the button!

Thats not nice. With knowing this, I can easily choose to not build important-production-reliable projects with 5.7 yet. Thats alright to me. But imagine the pain of investing days of work into a new project with the idea in mind ("this CMS can do database backups") and once you try it - even worse - once you need it - it does not do what it is written to do so.

I consider v5.7 a very good design and tech evolution, I like how the app behaves and what I can do with it, but it is not mature yet. And this should be pointed out somewhere.

Got that little nice project you want to build with 5.7, where nobody will be sad if you cannot backup or rely on certain functions? Go for 5.7 !

If you need a big project with all the functionality and grace that comes with c5? Head 5.6.3.2 for now or wait until the core team ships the next 5.7 step.

I've tried both wordpress and Joomla some time ago and lost any interest in it when i met c5. I have huge trust in this community and the c5 core team. MOSTLY because I observed them making wise decisions in the past!

I have no doubt that they will sort out the 5.7 issues in the future. The only thing I'd like to have (for others) is some kind of disclaimer that states the current situation to keep people from being frustrated when running into know issues.

And I totally agree that in an Open Source Project there is no "claim" to make it all happen smoothly. But please, people. If theres a button that says "backup database" and you only find out it does not work once you try it - which is most probably after you've built the whole site - that's not something I want to find out with a client-paid project.

This discussion should not be a "pro or con v5.7". But rather a "what can I use v.5.7 for RIGHT NOW"-discussion, which can be updated with the next release.

I cannot criticize core functions, I am not a developer and cannot contribute to it. I am a builder and my contribution to the community is in buying themes and add-ons and spreading the word about how much I like c5.

But yes, I understand how someone gets disappointed when ending up in a dead end road because there was no sign to warn him.
danielgwood replied on at Permalink
Well put - people need to understand that they are using a young version of the software, so it isn't going to be as polished as 5.6 or Drupal. I think it's leagues ahead of 5.6 personally, and far more usable out of the box than Drupal or even Wordpress.

One note on the backups feature - while I also found it odd that the button didn't work (why would you put it in if it isn't ready?!) - you can still run backups at the MySQL level, using something like phpMyAdmin. Personally I'd always do this as well as any in-CMS backup, because it's far less likely to fail.
Kiesel replied on at Permalink
Yeah, just get the community edition of SQLyog, connect to your database and save it all. Easy as pie.
Cahueya replied on at Permalink
I very much agree with both of you. For my own reasons I dont even need the "backup-through-CMS"-function. Can all be done through other ways.

But I can totally understand the sequence of:

Client: Can you build me a new webpage which I can maintain myself without any code-or-database-knowledge?

Webdesigner: Yes sure, there's actually a new version of my preferred CMS which can do everything you need to use it as the only interface.

Client: Great, do it! Here you have X-amount of money!

Webdesigner: Here you have your new website, all shiny and new! But please remember, whenever you plan to do big changes to the content, remember to click THIS LINK first to perform a database backup, so you can always go back to a previous version if you f***ed up by accident.

Client: *Click*

Webdesigner: DOH!

Some things need to be fixed or labeled.

When reading the forums about all upcoming 5.7 issues, it seems like the majority of these issues are hurdles for new users and end-clients who dont know how to use PHPmyadmin or anything similar.

I agree that this needs to be discussed and fixed - but even if andrew or franz stated "there will never be backup functionality in 5.7" - this would not be much of a problem if people knew it beforehand and pretty quickly, there would be how-tos and addons to take care of that.

Thanks for the SQLylog link, I've been using SequelPro and loving it, but I will check it out :)
JohntheFish replied on at Permalink
JohntheFish
That is one of the reasons I have not yet even looked how to port Backup Voodoo to 5.7. I don't want to go through all that work if a possibly upcoming core backup implementation for 5.7 makes my addon redundant. So I am waiting to see what the core backup will do. Will it be the same minimal backup as 5.6? Or will it be a more comprehensive backup?
abra100pro replied on at Permalink
abra100pro
I mostly agree with you - however, the readability of the UI is far from good. the font is to thin and cannot be read clearly in the sidebars. This is not a matter of taste but a simple disadvantage. I must say I miss the core team's feedback on issues like that.
mhawke replied on at Permalink
mhawke
Earlier in this long thread, I posted a 'DIY' package that alters the UI. It's not perfect but I like it a lot.

https://www.concrete5.org/community/forums/5-7-discussion/so-hows-ev...
wilfordbrimley replied on at Permalink
My minor annoyances:

- Content editor lacks a lot of functionality needed by an unskilled client. Heck, even for me just using it to edit things on the fly on my own site... one thing that stands out is links. I have to manually type the HTML target to open in a new window (since I never want someone navigating away from my site. In c5 there was a nice little drop down for this.

- Tables in the editor also. Need them. I have a new project coming up very sown and they want to be able to just copy and paste their monthly calendar from Microsoft Word to concrete and edit it. For this silly reason I can't use c5.7 for them.

- can't figure out how to turn off resizing thumbnails. Instructions on view.php in page_list block directory are no longer relevant.

- really not understanding the page types and page templates stuff - going to have to play around with it more.

Overall I like it though and these are minor annoyances!

EDIT: Found a couple other notes I made.
- Everything still gets wrapped in p tags, which I was used to in C5 and adjust my CSS accordingly, but it would be nice if images, etc. were not.
- Redactor removes white space that I typically do want. I know... some say bad technique to use br tag for white space, but just a few more lines between paragraphs or something and the content editor nixes them as soon as I hit "save".
- Would like to be able to remove the photos on the login screen to give it more of a white label feel.
maar replied on at Permalink
maar
Regarding Page Types and Templates...

Just my ten cent...

Page Templates is the psychical page e.g. left_sidebar.php. Page Types is virtual and you can make as many page types based on as many page templates you want.

Examples:

Let's say you want to make a page type that you want to use as a news article that is based on the page template right_sidebar,php. But you want to be able to decide from time to time that you would like to use left_sidebar.php. Here the virtual page types is kind of smart. You can simply tell the page type that you want to use both page templates for the design. Now let's call this news page type for "News Article". You then have the possibility to define witch page attributes that is essential for your new page type. Let's say we want to be able to edit/enter page name but not page URL. We want the publish date and the page description and so on... You really have a very powerful page type design tool here. You can even set default page attributes so you do not have to worry about them later. And you can design your page type with default standard blocks. But the real cool thing is the possibility to add content and image blocks to the design that you just populate in composer when using the page type. Just a note for this... When you have defined e.g. a content block in your form settings, you have to go to the output page and insert that block on the page where you want it. You will find the defined form block by inserting the composer block all the way down in the bottom of the block panel list. It will only be accessibly when you are in the output design page.

I am thinking about doing a screencast about this in the future (actually already did this in danish - you can see it here:http://youtu.be/kK_cGmKXvCc ). but this has to be enough for today!

/Michael
mesuva replied on at Permalink
mesuva
I agree about the content editor, it is missing quite a few features. I have some confidence though that when Redactor is updated to version 10, and some other plugins are integrated these frustrations will be reduced (and hopefully eliminated!). Things like being able to open links in new windows/tabs is flagged are github.

With adding tables, I put together something for 5.7 that _might_ help a bit, actually two things. One is a table block:
http://www.mesuva.com.au/blog/concrete5/a-table-block-for-concrete5...

The other is a content block based on CKEditor. It doesn't have filemanger and sitemap integration, but CKEditor apparently does a nice job of tables.
You can grab that here:
https://github.com/Mesuva/ckeditor_content...

(I may have posted these links in the thread above, not trying to be spammy!)
appliculture replied on at Permalink
appliculture
You did a wonderful work here mesuva for both plugins.

When I see the amount of work remaining to bring Redactor to an acceptable level of functionality I'm asking the question why we couldn't switch the WYSIWYG to CKeditor that is way much better in all ways: the output html is more clean and the functionalities are more than sufficient.
I know that regarding weight and extentability Redactor is much better but if we put in the balance the fact that the editor is done for easy editing for people with no HTML (or IT knowledge) and Redactor is done for easy extensibility I think we should focus more on editors rather than developpers.

It would be great to have an input from the core team here.
notTheBest324 replied on at Permalink
I have used Concrete5 for a few years and it does not take long to master how to build great themes that work extremely well for brochure websites. Great plugins allow for even further expansion of your website if needs be. Write a simple document for a client on how to edit their website and they find it very easy to maintain.

The massive concern I have is that the developers are forcing version 5.7 down everyone's throat when the product is still not finished. The documentation for 5.7 is still not even done. There are also an insanely small amount of plugins available for 5.7. Forcing some developers, like me to still use 5.6.3.1. Concrete5 then released 5.6.3.2 after releasing multiple updates for 5.7. So it looks like they are working on both products which slows down the process of moving forward. Be aware that there is no script available to upgrade from 5.6.3.2 to 5.7, but they are promising one will be available in the future.

The change is massive for developers and site editors. Although the cosmetic features are brilliant and a few minor changes bring massive improvements for site editors and permission settings, 5.7 is still something you should avoid for at least another year in my opinion. v5.6.3.2 is the best version of the product.

I prefer to use Concrete5 over Wordpress. But having two versions out that are so different has really made me doubt what was such a brilliant product for my requirements. Once 5.7 is fully operationally and all bugs cleared with a strong market place, I will be using it. For now I am stuck with 5.6.3.2.

Are you guys going to keep back porting changes until you have a script for upgrade available. What does that mean for my existing theme? Will I have to recode it when I upgrade? Am I stupid to keep developing in 5.6.3.2 with no upgrade script? What happens when 5.7 takes over and my client's 5.6.3.2 website get's hacked. I am not going to be recoding themes. So much extra work could suddenly appear and consume me. I am worried that this great system is just going to fall apart??
Kiesel replied on at Permalink
Nah, it's not that bad really. I was cursing when I used 5.7.2 or a version before that.

But now with 5.7.3.1 and all Systems updated... I don't have a lot of problems anymore.

Granted, the wysiwyg editor is still a little problem field. Especially the tables. But so much other stuff is so much better than in 5.6.x that I'm really glad about using it. Finally I can show my clients how to make a zoom image directly in the content block for example. No Flash anymore needed by the multiple file upload field. Instead nice drag&drop uploads. Foundation5 is nicely integrated. And and and...

The marketplace will fill up fast, and besides the missing modules like ECommerce it's all on a fast and good way. We use it and already don't look back anymore at 5.6.x.

Just the programming side is a bit more though now without an easy implementation of own helpers, no AdoDB anymore and some other stuff. That concerns me way more. But I trust the developers that there are good reasons for everything and I'll arrange myself with that.
notTheBest324 replied on at Permalink
How could it *NOT be bad? 5.7 is great and I can't wait to start using it but the current situation with digital agencies like us is we are now in limbo. What happens if tomorrow your client want's Ecommerce or something that is not available in 5.7 but was available in 5.6.3.2? Some developers are not going to redo their plugins. Responsive galleries, Designer Content Blocks? Why payout for blocks when Wordpress has stuff like that free and so did 5.6.3.2. Developers have to be retrained (which is unavoidable in this industry). You say the market place will fill up fast, it's been over 6 months now and there is hardly anything there. 5.6.3.2 is an after thought and I am really worried about the sites we are developing at the moment. Any site we build as developers, whether it is in 5.6.3.2 or 5.7 we do not have the full attention of the developers meaning the product attention is split in half. This will result in both websites we produce with problems. Long term for 5.6.3.2 or short term for 5.7.
iFX replied on at Permalink
That's actually one of the main reasons why I switched to WP... I couldn't use 5.7 without ecommerce and it seemed crazy to create new sites in 5.6 when everything I'd seen and heard said that there would be no upgrade script... why would I create new sites in a system I knew would be a dead end without having to rebuild the whole site again once 5.7 caught up??

Has this changed? will there be an upgrade available afterall?
wilfordbrimley replied on at Permalink
^ I agree with foundation working nicely with 5.7
Previously I had to insert some CSS to get the editor overlay to line up and there would other conflicts at times. Hopefully this doesn't change with an update as I'm a die hard foundation fan
JB2U replied on at Permalink
Thanks for the thread. Literally started test-driving C5 yesterday and really like it, until maintenance mode locked me out. And then I discovered this thread. Going back to Joomla for now (WP too insecure and Drupal too complex for most needs). Will revisit in a couple of months. Shame. I really like C5, but life is too short.
maar replied on at Permalink
maar
Ahrrr,

This should not make you run away...

Try:
http://www.yoursite.com/index.php/login...

And after that (this might be a tiny bug):
http://www.yoursite.com/index.php/dashboard/system/permissions/main...

And you are perfectly able to switch back to live site again...

You could say that there is a bug in maintenance mode because you can't get to your pages and edit them.

/Michael
mkly replied on at Permalink
mkly
@JB2U,
Maintenance mode was also a point of confusion for some back in concrete5 5.6. Back then I created an add-on called "Maintenance Editor" which acted a bit more like some people expected concrete5 maintenance mode to work. I've since created a similar free add-on for 5.7 call "Under Construction"http://www.concrete5.org/marketplace/addons/under-construction... that is available in the Marketplace. Basically, you can choose which page the visitor will be redirected to, as well as selecting which users can bypass it. Administrators group and admin user by default. You might want to have a look to see if that lines up a bit better with your expectations.
maar replied on at Permalink
maar
Hi mkly,

You are right about this, but I just tested the standard maintenance mode. If it is enabled the superadmin can't see or edit pages in the front-end. The only way to get to the site again is to disable maintenance mode by going to the page (http://yoursite.com/index.php/dashboard/system/permissions/maintenance) directly.
I already wrote an issue on Git.

/Michael
simonchilton replied on at Permalink
I'm finding the UI very cumbersome compared to earlier versions. Looks pretty but takes editors longer to achieve the same results. Also can't move blocks and am hitting quite a lot of unexplained bugs.

Nice work under the cover but I'm not convinced it's an improvement for the user.
pvernaglia replied on at Permalink
pvernaglia
I normally don't do a lot of the data entry on the sites I work on, I do the theme and blocks and the client takes over from there. I am doing a migration from 5.6 to 5.7 right now and I have had to do all the data entry for about 30 pages. I think cumbersome is a great way to define editing with 5.7.

The drag and drop blocks are cute with their wiggly icon and all and fine when you are adding just a block or two, but building a whole site is a painful experience, too much clicking and dragging, it's very slow and like you said, cumbersome.

Here's to hoping for some big improvements in the UI when we see 5.7.4!
garyjhills replied on at Permalink Best Answer
garyjhills
Awful!!! Clients have complained it is slow, unresponsive, it's a nightmare to work with - overall a total washout!! Don't bother with this anymore, seriously. Move to Wordpress at least until they sort this pile of crap out!
abra100pro replied on at Permalink
abra100pro
Yes, sure, have fun with Wordpress :-)
maar replied on at Permalink
maar
Maybe I will miss you...
If you ever come back, then please write some constructive questions...
getsupport replied on at Permalink
getsupport
I moved to wordpress also, for the moment. Until 5.7 is more matured.
maar replied on at Permalink
maar
Why are you then still hanging around here for?
getsupport replied on at Permalink
getsupport
I love concrete5 but to push the 5.7 version is a bad decision!
jshannon replied on at Permalink
jshannon
Yeah; it's fascinating to watch Icarus in real-time.
abra100pro replied on at Permalink
abra100pro
Our programmer loves it so much that our production time went down a really profitable portion. 5.7 is great. It is a change and folks don't like changes. But then - give it a try or hire a professional programmer (ok, that was provocative, but... on purpose, I confess).
However - to make that perfectly clear and getting serious again: I manage a wordpress website for a customer of ours and it is h.e.l.l. - This is the most stupid system existing. period. I wonder how a customer can handle it. every other day I should update it. Whoever in here wants to go for wordpress: farewell and get happy.
madesimplemedia replied on at Permalink
madesimplemedia
I agree 5.7 isn't the polished product that 5.6 is. I do swear at it a lot, there are loads of bugs and editing with it seems like a lot more effort. I also added ProBlog and it entered a loop that crashed my site, not sure if its the add-on or 5.7 itself but given up on that for now.

But going to Wordpress seems a bit extreme. Why not use 5.6? I've still got clients on 5.4. 5.7 is evolving quickly, the marketplace and grown fast and I have faith in Franz and the team to work on the issues quickly and turn 5.7 into the best version yet.
garyjhills replied on at Permalink
garyjhills
Seems the original poster liked my no-nonsense reply & marked it as the best answer... don't get me wrong, I do love Concrete5 but I guess a bit too much frustration came out from a bad day with trying to work on a new site and hitting brick wall after brick wall and bug after bug wound me up to breaking point!

Going to do a manual upgrade to 5.7.3.1 to see if that helps and then to 5.7.4 in a couple of weeks - let's hope they bring this back from the brink as it was, by far, the easiest CMS to use and work with and have still got many sites built using 5.6.x.x

Here's hoping :o)
goldhat replied on at Permalink
I'm concerned about the page editing and approval, and panels. Describing the problem is difficult because that's the problem, I've been building a 5.7 site for over a month and I still don't really know how page editing is supposed to work.

I find when I make pages and use composer, they are still not approved. The old version of the page loads after my changes. Then if I refresh the page again, suddenly the "approve version" notice comes up. So if I understand it correctly, changes made in composer create a new version, but saving those changes does not approve the version? So the user then has to hit refresh in order to bring up the option to approve the version?

Another issue (that might be a bug?) is that on pagetypes where the location is required, if I make the page in composer, it requires location. Location is in a different panel, when I go there and save location then return to composer the location is lost and the validation strikes again. Bottom line it's impossible to make a page at all using composer if your pagetype requires location.

I think there needs to be a more clear way to force the approval of a pages version while editing. Like in composer having buttons "Save Version" which only drafts a version and then another larger more clear button that is "Publish Changes" which means save the changes and publish the new version which is what most users want to do and expect.
maar replied on at Permalink
maar
Editing pages in 5.7 or using composer -that is the question... :-)

We have build 7 5.7 sites now, and these questions did come up a few times. What I have discovered is that this is not a all-round decision that could be made for all sites.

Using 5.7 forces a more disciplinary approach to building sites than 5.6 did. And I welcome this because it gives fare more flexibility. Let me try to explain...

Let us say that we are building a site where blog is primary. Then composer of course is the chosen tool to use. But the more complex site you are going to build, the more decision making you have to take in what to use and what not to use. I found out that if I chose composer to pages that is always similar to each other and do directly page editing on more odd pages, things begins to make sense.

But I see here (between the lines) that composer is the issue. And I have some ground rules.

1. If a page type always have master text content the same place, then use composer.
2. If you do not plan to add composer added image or content blocks, then don't use composer.

When you are setting up a page type you have the choice not to use composer when adding a page with that page type. Then you simply will be editing the page directly as you always do.

And here is the ground issue. Page Types... Here everything is different than good old concrete5 and it took me a while to understand it fully. And it is here that you have to be kind of disciplinary. The Page Type system is very powerful when comparing to concrete5 5.6. And you can really configure a site and all its functionality here. I predict a huge amount of add-ons that will try to manipulate page types this way.

Think about that every time that you make a page type, you have all the composer ready blocks, attributes and functionality to add to that particular page type. They will not come to you automatically, you have to add each and every one to every page type you construct.

I think it is a little easier if you look at page types as a web-builder toolbox and treat it as such.

About (that might be a bug)... If you require location... Remember to add the "Built-In Properties" - "Page Location" to your page type. By that you can chose location directly in composer.

Every time you use composer you approve a page by using the green button in the lower right corner of composer. If you jump from composer to page editing you might loose the opportunity to approve directly.

This was my 5 cents of e-learning...

/Michael
andrewjaff replied on at Permalink
andrewjaff
Hi,

can any one tell me how can we add page attribute in package.

and how to call helper in block view.php
pvernaglia replied on at Permalink
pvernaglia
use Concrete\Core\Attribute\Key\CollectionKey as CollectionAttributeKey;
use \Concrete\Core\Attribute\Type as AttributeType;
// Add Attribute
$attribute = CollectionAttributeKey::getByHandle('my_attribute');
if ( !is_object($attribute)) {
    $att = AttributeType::getByHandle('select');
    CollectionAttributeKey::add($att, array('akHandle' => 'my_attribute', 'akName' => t('My Attribute'), 'akIsSearchableIndexed' => true, 'akIsSearchable' => true, 'akSelectAllowMultipleValues' => true, 'akSelectAllowOtherValues' => true, 'akSelectOptionDisplayOrder' => 'alpha_asc'),$pkg); 
    $addAttribute = CollectionAttributeKey::getByHandle('my_attribute');
}


What helper do you want to load? You should check the cheatsheet at webli.us
jshannon replied on at Permalink
jshannon
What's this cheat sheet you speak of? web.us seems to redirect to ambler.net.
pvernaglia replied on at Permalink
pvernaglia
sorry, spell checker got me, webli.us
mhawke replied on at Permalink
mhawke
This thread is starting to resemble a chat room. Wouldn't it be better to post these very specific support questions in their own support threads?
maar replied on at Permalink
maar
+1
okapi replied on at Permalink
okapi
+1
andrewjaff replied on at Permalink
andrewjaff
Thanks for this.

I have a helper file in package directory in helper folder.

so how I can load this in package block view.php file.

I am using loder:: helper('helper file','package');

its not working.
andrewjaff replied on at Permalink
andrewjaff
Thanks for this.

I have a helper file in package directory in helper folder.

so how I can load this in package block view.php file.

I am using loder:: helper('helper file','package');

its not working.
andrewjaff replied on at Permalink
andrewjaff
Hi,

What about newsletter ?

Is there any addon available for 5.7 or we have to create it.
okapi replied on at Permalink
okapi
Please refer to the subject of this thread! This is definitely the wrong place for addon requests and support questions, as mhawke already mentioned.
okapi replied on at Permalink
okapi
Now 5.7.4 is out and i'm still getting errors and having problems while performing the simplest tasks in building a site. This is so frustrating. While odd sucess messages are posted by the team ("...We've seen high end hotels and banks use 5.7 for live sites...", posted by Franz on April 16, 2015), i have not been able to set up even a simple test site without constant problems and errors which often completely and permantently block core functionalities.
With 5.7.4, i thought we would now finally have a stable CMS, but again, it seems that it's again too early published, still in kind of beta state.
pulutose replied on at Permalink
+1 5.7 is completely waste of time and effort.
Tired of its bugs and its bleeding slow.
I will continue to use 5.5 which is the best version of concrete5

It should stay in BETA and shouldn't be forced to download as the first option.

5.7 sucks!!!
What a shame ...
okapi replied on at Permalink
okapi
Just want to add, the latest two updates (5.7.4.1 and 5.7.4.2) have ironed out a lot of issues! We should also see these advances, which are definitely encouraging!

Andrew is reacting very quickly to bug reports, and maintenance updates don't take long to see.

I think, instead of generically complaining we should now do our best to report precisely what still does not work, in order to help concrete5 5.7 to become really production ready.

I'm much more optimistic now than i was weeks before.
mhawke replied on at Permalink
mhawke
The problem is that fixing bugs is just 'putting lipstick on a pig'. Basic functionality is substantially more cumbersome than in 5.6. Clipboard functions are supposed to allow for rapid building but even this basic thing is way too convoluted. Adding pages used to be simple until the core team got the notion that the paradigm needed a shift. I could list countless of functions that are now much more time-consuming to perform but these complaints have been lodged for more than 2 years and nothing has fundamentally changed in this regard since the original alpha version so I won't bother anymore. As a fledgling developer, I used to be able to hack together some perfectly functional packages for a client but with 5.7, I am forced to understand way too much of the internal architecture. It is now nearly impossible for me to accurately predict how long custom work will take and for some reason, my clients seem reluctant to just let me hack around on their dime until I stumble on a solution and so I fear that I cannot put a client on 5.7 and remain profitable. Over time , these complex systems are supposed to get easier to build with and the complexities are supposed to get masked by higher levels of abstraction (does anyone remember assembly code and punch cards... I do) but 5.7 is a step backwards in so many ways (imho) even if it's being built on top of more modern frameworks.
mesuva replied on at Permalink
mesuva
We're finding 5.7 _easier_ to develop with, both in terms of creating themes and sites overall, as well as when developing custom blocks and dashboard pages. The new features available easily make up for any new challenges.

I seriously don't understand all the complaints about things be dramatically different on a coding level. They're really not. Things like block templates are pretty much the same, developing custom blocks is the same process, packages are put together in the same way and single pages aren't any different. My 5.6 packages and 5.7 packages have pretty much the same amount of code.

Yes there is namespacing to include, but once you've worked out how that works it's not an issue. The rest of it just seems pretty much the same, there are just a few things that are _different_, not harder than before. There's perhaps a bit more use of 'facades', but that only tends to make things clearer anyway (and if you use something like Laravel they are very familiar). We're finding custom work takes about the same amount of time to develop as it did before.

The UI is different, but with all the tweaks and fixes it's really come together. We're able to add and edit content at just the same speed as before (and in some places it seems faster).

Calling 5.7 a 'pig' is ridiculous, and really quite offensive considering the hard work that goes into it. The code quality of concrete5 is pretty phenomenal for an open source system.

We've rolled out a good handful of production sites in 5.7 and they've been working great - we've been just as profitable and our clients are very happy. The new layouts mechanism is a killer feature for example - being able to define a custom grid system has been great and has saved us time in terms of creating different page layouts. I'm excited what some of the new features like the ability to extend Redactor with plugins will bring.

With the last few releases I've been VERY pleased at what has been looked at and fixed. I too am very optimistic about 5.7.

I'm sorry that you don't feel the same way here.
mhawke replied on at Permalink
mhawke
I have edited my post to put quotes around 'lipstick on a pig'. It's just a saying meant to infer that I think the core team is focusing on superficial things that mask some fundamentally flawed UX problems. Hey, it's only one man's perspective but I am by no means the only person to express this. New clients who never knew the speed of 5.6 do not know what they are missing so of course the new UX looks sleek and modern. By criticising aspects of an open source project, I am not criticizing the people involved who are doing the hard work. It's like parenting... I love my kids unconditionally but I don't always love their behaviour.

As far as development goes, I noticed that you said "we're finding 5.7 easier" which implies that you have several developers working on c5 but I work solo and the learning curve has been too much for me. I would love to have additional minds in my office to work on different aspects of 5.7 in order to educate the other developers but I don't. It's just me.

It's not just namespacing. When I look at the code behind many of the new packages, I see a multitude of 'USE' statements that never used to be necessary and it frightens me to think about trying to figure out what I need to 'use' to make my code run. That's what I meant when I said that developers need a more intimate knowledge of the system. Perhaps I just haven't found a resource that explains this stuff well enough so please 'school' me if you can.
maar replied on at Permalink
maar
I Here you...

About the use statements. If you do not understand them, then don't use them in the beginning of your development. Let concrete5 woops debugging explain what you are missing.

This approach teached me a lot!
okapi replied on at Permalink
okapi
As for speed - i agree that performance could be improved in 5.7, but let us remember the lack of performance many people (including me) were worrying about in concrete5 5.6.0, which was then massively improved in 5.6.1! - I am optimistic that once they focus on performance - it's very likely that it will be significantly get improved. At the moment there are certainly things of greater priority to be processed.
juddc replied on at Permalink
juddc
I tend to agree on the interface - the Whiz-Bang aspect of it bogs down the actual business of getting work done. I miss being able to click and choose a block.

I'm more of a themer/content placement guy - not a hardcore backend guy. I find the trays tends to bog down and get slow. Dragging blocks around, they're tempermental and finicky - adding new pages is confusing unless you force the user into the composer. The learning curve is much steeper for an average user IMHO.

I've built a few sites with 5.7, and packaged up some themes and find that the back-end stuff that I _can_ do is much nicer - the built-in grid support is pretty killer (even if the interface to use them is not), and working custom templates is nicer too.
ramonleenders replied on at Permalink
ramonleenders
For your information, as of 5.7.4 you can click and add a block without the dragging part! Just click on an area and add block and the menu will open where you can click a block (without dragging).
juddc replied on at Permalink
juddc
Not if there is already a block in the area.
ramonleenders replied on at Permalink
ramonleenders
Even then, just hover over one of the blocks in an area and the name of the area will be shown below the last block. Click that name and the menu will apear, including the add block option!
juddc replied on at Permalink
juddc
Huh. You're right. I never would've figured that out. Thanks for the tip - that makes things much better.
okapi replied on at Permalink
okapi
If you click directly on the label of an area, you can add as many blocks as you want.
(ramonleenders said it already).
But actually i see no advantage in this procedure. Adding blocks by drag&drop allows me to choose where exactly it should go in an area. Clicking on the label just lets me add a block at the bottom of the area, so i have to move the block in a second step to the desired place.
juddc replied on at Permalink
juddc
Does anyone else find those labels super-finicky? I'll mouse-over a label and it often disappears and highlights the area below it. Frustrating.
okapi replied on at Permalink
okapi
Haven't seen them disappearing so far, but sometimes i see some inconsistency in the way how the borders of areas are displayed. Maybe it's a problem with paddings or overlapping margins or so. Also i haven't quite figured out why sometimes the label appears exactly at the bottom of an area, sometimes a bit above. Nevertheless these indicators have been much improved since the early days of 5.7 and i find them quite usable now.
juddc replied on at Permalink 1 Attachment
juddc
Happens on Safari, Chrome and Firefox. I can download and install a fresh copy of c5 and use the sample content with Elemental and the area labels are still flakey.

I posted a gif. Hopefully the animation works.
mhawke replied on at Permalink 1 Attachment
mhawke
I've posted this package waaaay back in this thread but I've attached it here again. Install it and add the block to a Global Area and see if it helps. If not, then un-install it.
juddc replied on at Permalink
juddc
Thank you. That's a lot more solid for editing.

On 2015-05-22 2:08 PM, concrete5 Community wrote:
mesuva replied on at Permalink
mesuva
Sorry, I just used 'we' as it's my partner and I that work on concrete5 sites. But it's really only me that codes (my partner really just does front end stuff), so there isn't a team of minds, really just me!

The use of USE statements is directly related to namespacing. I appreciate that they might be a bit confusing at first (they were for me), but they're actually pretty simple once you realise their pattern and purpose. It's one of those things that just 'clicked' for me, now I don't even really think about them.

For those reading:

All that a USE statement really does is tell PHP to make a particular Class available to use in the current scope. It's NOT a kind of include statement, it's just a statement to say "Hey, I'm going to want to use a class, found by this namespace, somewhere in the following PHP, be ready to allow me to do that".

In practice, all you have to do is include a USE statement anytime you want to use a particular class.

For example, I might be coding in some Dashboard controller class and want to use concrete5's User class to find a particular user.

I can fetch a user with this static call:
$user = User::getByUserID($user_id);

When I do that, I'm using the User class, but I first need to tell PHP that I want to use it.

So I need to add at the top of the file:
use User;

(that fact that it's just a single word and not a path I'll get to in a bit)

Where the namespacing thing comes into play, is that I might be developing a package where I have lots of classes, and I'd like to also call a class User for some reason. It might be that I'm integrating some third-party code, where someone else has already defined a User class (think like code for an external API). I don't want to have to take a guess at picking something unique (or having to go through the 3rd party code to change things), so instead namespacing is used to ensure classes don't conflict.

At the top of my User class php file in my package, I'd put something like this:
namespace Concrete\Package\MesuvaPackage\Src\Users\User;

Then comes a time where I want to use my particular User class in some code.
I'd use a use statement like:
use \Concrete\Package\MesuvaPackage\Src\Users\User;


Then when I use User further down in my code, I'll be actually using _my_ own User class.
(it's perhaps not a good idea to name your own classes the same as core concrete5 classes, but it's the concept I'm talking about here)

However, what if I want to use _both_ my own User class and concrete5's User class in a controller? I could do something like this:
use User;
use \Concrete\Package\MesuvaPackage\Src\Users\User as MesuvaUser;

Then I can do:
$user = new User();
$mesuvauser = new MesuvaUser();

Now a question might be: why do I sometimes just go 'use ClassName;', and at other times I need to put the complete namespace path?

Well the reason is that a whole bunch of concrete5's commonly used classes are 'aliased', meaning that writing 'use User;' is just a shortcut for saying: 'use \Concrete\Core\User\User;'

If you look in /concrete/config/app.php you'll see this list of aliases.
You can still directly refer to classes using their full namespacing path, the aliases are just there to make things quicker to write. (there might be a bit more to aliases and autoloading, but that's at least my impression when it comes to how they relate to use statements)

Ultimately Maar's suggestion about letting the whoops debugging help you out is a good one. If you run code and then it complains about not being able to find a User class (or whatever it is), there's a high chance you just need to make sure that your code has a use statement for that class at the top.

The fortunate thing is, if you add use statements for things that _aren't_ used, it's not going to break. You also don't need to look deeper than the current file you are working on, you just look through it find what classes are directly used.

My suggestion to anyone that if the above still is causing you to scratch your head, take a step back and read a bit about PHP's namespacing in general first. It could be that you're still thinking in terms of PHP includes, which are not the same thing.

Prior to 5.7, you could simply refer to concrete'5 classes without having to worry about adding a use statement at the top. But for your own classes you would have to use something like Loader::library or Loader::model to load things in, and then you'd run the risk of clashing class names. Now with 5.7 you don't do that kind of thing, you just make sure your classes are namespaced and in the right directories and you can use them by just making sure you have an appropriate use statement at the top. They're automatically loaded in, you just have to tell PHP you are about to use them.

So it's perhaps a bit of a break-even in terms of coding. You have to think about use statements, but you don't have to think about including files to make classes available. Different yes, but I don't think it's more complex, and I don't think it means you have to know concrete5 more intimately. If anything, when I do need to dig a bit deeper I find the concrete5 codebase easier to navigate and it gives me better example of code to use in my own work.

With respect mhawke, I think you've seen namespacing, not understood it initially (like me) but then decided that 5.7 is all way too complex now. I had exactly the same response initially, but realised I needed to just spend some timing bringing my PHP knowledge up to par. It's only a handful of new concepts, primarily to do with the namespacing - everything else is pretty much the same process. I'm perhaps fortunate that I'm in a position where I'm working on PHP based systems other than concrete5, so it's in my interest to learn new things like namespacing to keep my skills up to date, it doesn't feel a waste of my time. But I do appreciate the frustration at having to learn new stuff to effectively work on the same system - I don't blame you at all for that frustration!

I'm tempted to do a video discussing namespacing in 5.7...
MrKDilkington replied on at Permalink
MrKDilkington
@mesuva

Thank you, your explanation is very clear and approachable.

You know my response to your videos... keep them coming.

It would make a great addition, video or not, to the How-To section.
okapi replied on at Permalink
okapi
@mesuva

Thank you!
Ale replied on at Permalink
Great explanation! Thanks.
mesuva replied on at Permalink
mesuva
Here's my attempt at explaining namespacing for 5.7 in video form!

http://www.mesuva.com.au/blog/concrete5/namespacing-and-use-stateme...
maar replied on at Permalink
maar
You are the man... Very good explanation!
MrKDilkington replied on at Permalink
MrKDilkington
@mesuva

This video and explanation will be a huge help and reference for many people.

Great job as always.
okapi replied on at Permalink
okapi
@mesuva

Great, thank you for your work! Glad to have learned about namespaces and classes!
OKDnet replied on at Permalink
OKDnet
@mesuva +1 on all the comments.
Almost perfect timing for me too! Thanks! I always look forward to your videos or instructions.
HardOne replied on at Permalink
HardOne
@mesuva: Great job! Your explanation and your video on namespacing should find it's way into documentation.

And you should receive a massive karma bonus for this. :-)
HardOne replied on at Permalink
HardOne
@pulutose:You are using a product free of charge, while not giving back something to the community and complaining that things don't work the way you'd like?

In my humble opinion that's neither fair nor constructive. More people actually using the 5.7 branch, will result in faster development and thus a sooner release of a 100% production ready and bug free release. I'd like to invite you to join the community. But in case leeching on a great product is your way of life, then go ahead. But please keep in mind that you get thousands of work hours for free by just using any C5 version.
ramonleenders replied on at Permalink
ramonleenders
+1 @HardOne

I've been using 5.7 for projects as well and it turned into a quite stable version. The first versions of 5.7 had their issues (and didn't want to use it for projects), but 5.7.4.x is quite the sh*t if you ask me! I'm using 5.7 for projects for sure, no way I'm ever going back 5.6 (only if I need some add-ons that are required and a sh*tload of work to code/convert into 5.7).
pyrodigital replied on at Permalink
Struggling, I installed the same as I have previously on IIS & once getting the hang of the new dashboard I ventured into new add-ons & themes I have bought a new theme & cannot download it from the dashboard saying Hey, Not sure if I have gone wrong in set up but I cant download or install ad-ons or the new update for 5.7

When I try to downdload a theme or plug in I get this:
The directory E:\WebSites\ForceSpecialEffects v.7.4.1/packages/ already exists. Perhaps this item has already been installed.

Any tips guys? I also cant update through the dashboard either getting the same message just in updates.
maar replied on at Permalink
maar
@pyrodigital

1. You should make (you already did) your own bug request thread. You will not get proper help in this thread.
2. As of now we have build more that 20 5.7 sites. No problems installing add-ons. I think you should look at your IIS settings. But for your benefit, we have developed entirely on Linux
pyrodigital replied on at Permalink
No problem.
customer28 replied on at Permalink
I have downloaded the latest version from the site today and installed it successfully with the dummy content. None of the themes are working. I have tried three so far and they show the pages as if there are no stylesheets.

URL is voyja.com

What do I have to do to fix this?

Thanks.
abra100pro replied on at Permalink
abra100pro
Use a Browser and its web inspector's console, let it show the loaded ressources to see that there seems a problem beyond concrete5.

Sample:
Use Safari on Mac, press CMD+OPT+A to show the web inspector, see a red bullet on top of the inspector with a number 2 on it, click it and read:

[Error] Failed to load resource: the server responded with a status of 403 (Forbidden) (iGotStyle.css, line 0)
[Error] Failed to load resource: the server responded with a status of 404 (Not Found) (favicon.ico, line 0)

fix them and have fun.
Sorry for my bad english. tired and overworked.
OKDnet replied on at Permalink
OKDnet
I'm not seeing those, but I am seeing this one

Failed to load resource: the server responded with a status of 403 (Forbidden)
on the following
<link href="/concrete/blocks/feature/view.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" media="all">
customer28 replied on at Permalink
Thanks. It was some rewrite rules in the .htaccess file left over from a previous installation. I've removed the file and I think it is fixed now.
madesimplemedia replied on at Permalink
madesimplemedia
Loving 5.7 now. Built a few sites in it and so far so good. New functionality is nice and the UI is great.
abra100pro replied on at Permalink
abra100pro
Is anybody else being kicked out of the session all the time when logged in? It drives me mad!
Seen on 5.7.3, 5.7.4 and now 5.7.5 with Safari, Firefox on two different Macs.
madesimplemedia replied on at Permalink
madesimplemedia
How often?
I do get ejected more than I used to with 5.6 but it's not often enough to cause me much trouble.
andrew replied on at Permalink
andrew
I've had this happen on OS X. I've had a devil of a time replicating it or figuring out the cause. It's also very intermittent, and seems to only happen on sites where I've installed concrete5 in a subdirectory. Plus, it only seems to happen at certain times of the day (I realize that sounds crazy, but this is an issue on OS X, would love to find a fix, or even figure out a cause.)
Ale replied on at Permalink
I've seen this a lot since 5.7.0. Some of the sites were hosted on CentOS and others on IIS servers. The problem has occured regardless of the browser (FF, Chrome, IE) and I feel that the problem has occured more often if I had multiple browser tabs open on the same site (ie. opened dashboard in background), but I've also seen it happiening inside single browser tab.

No idea of the cause though...
abra100pro replied on at Permalink
abra100pro
It happens here between each and every click and days. We tried hard to find out a cause, a logic behind the problem but, as others said: it seems just perfectly random.

I just figured out, that it happens more often, when I share the screen with a customer (via join.me).
tallacman replied on at Permalink
tallacman
No issue for me. The 2 week login option keeps me in for that long.
tallacman replied on at Permalink
tallacman
The mobile preview is wonderful!
chemmett replied on at Permalink
chemmett
Going well! We've done a couple of new sites in 5.7 and despite a few rough edges, wouldn't go back to 5.6 for new development.

From a developer standpoint, the namespaced, better organized codebase is a very good thing, and the way script/css assets are included from blocks or themes is a big improvement.
mercuryconsolecom replied on at Permalink
So far I think 5.7 is an inferior product.

It has been so radically changed that it should be Concrete6 as it is a whole new product. You cannot event upgrade form 5.6 to 5.7. If I have to redesign all my pages manually, I'll look for a better product, that isn't going to make all my work obsolete.

The choice of themes is still very limited.

Concrete5.7 is not intuitive like 5.6. It's as if they purchased another product and named it Concrete 5.7. Generally when you create upgrades to a product, you introduce improvements and fix bugs and preserve the overall look and feel of the products.

In short, I will continue to use 5.6 as long as I can. Since moving to 5.7 requires me to learn a whole new systems, and recreate my site literally from scratch, I will seek an alternative product to facilitate my upgrades and future development.

I have to wonder if Concrete hired the Microsoft Vista and/or Windows 8 team. They appear to be making the same mistakes that doomed those products, by radically changing their platform, they are push customers to alternative products.
okapi replied on at Permalink
okapi
Sadly, i have to add, in comparison to concrete5.6, concrete5.7 it is still very slow.
rockface replied on at Permalink
rockface
I feel your pain - but I really do like the new 5.7 way of working.

That said, an add-on and theme rebuilder tool would become an instant hit!

It could be a 5.7 package which creates a new dashboard page that looks for (invalid) 5.6 packages (in the packages folder) and walked the admin through a rewrite wizard which converts them to a new 5.7 package in a new folder.

I seriously doubt an automated tool would work 100% of the time, but it might get most of the heavy lifting done and seriously reduce the time needed to rewrite a package.
safetyfirexperts replied on at Permalink
I am hosting on Hostpapa.com.
Concrete5 5.7.4 is running sweet on remote host.
I have an issue with links not opening by guest and the page redirecting to home (i.e. when not logged in as admin).
MrKDilkington replied on at Permalink
MrKDilkington
@safetyfirexperts

Are you using the Under Construction add-on?
safetyfirexperts replied on at Permalink
under construction addon... Well if that's the case then you are genius to point out and save our day. Will try to remove it and will get back.
safetyfirexperts replied on at Permalink
Under Construction Addon. May be this is the problem. Will see
safetyfirexperts replied on at Permalink
Just a correction to what i mentioned before about the version of concrete I am using. It is 5.7.5.2 ...

# concrete5 Version
Core Version - 5.7.5.2
Version Installed - 5.7.5.2
Database Version - 20150731000000

# concrete5 Packages
Under Construction (1.0.1).
safetyfirexperts replied on at Permalink
Under construction Addon! Yes it is installed. Thank You. Will try remove it and see..
safetyfirexperts replied on at Permalink
Removed the Under Construction Addon and it worked sweeter than before.
Thank You very much.

Best Regards,
okapi replied on at Permalink
okapi
I think this thread is not as useful any more as it was when it was started and should be closed eventually. People understandably sometimes are not aware of the fact that a huge number of users have subscribed to this dinosaur thread and thus are getting messages about each and every comment posted here, even if it has nothing to do with the original subject and should better be posted separately in the related forums or as bug report at GitHub.
abra100pro replied on at Permalink
abra100pro
Having worked now since february with c5.7 we found a conclusion in the recent days for ourselves that we want to share/discuss with you. It is (of course!) personally biased.

First: We are webdesigners with a basic understanding of PHP, we're not the geeks. We're the ones that teach our customers how to maintain their websites. From that point of view: concrete5.7 has missed the target. Why?

It is still (really) full of bugs - just learned today, that a pagetype can not be made newly but must be copied from an existing one - otherwise an important form is invisible when trying to save a page from it into the sitemap, to name just a really essential one.

The user interface - c'mon, let's be honest on this, is very sophisticated and far beyond the knowledge of a secretary that maintains the website now and then. Furthermore it is inconsistent and sometimes hides essential parts (like the save button for the wysiwyg editor, because it is out of sight on a 1440px-Screen). The placement of blocks is something that needs all the finesse you have in your hand. The layouts (columns) is neither thought through nor practicably usable: The single columns tabs sometimes overlap the area tabs in a way that makes it impossible to choose - one of each is simply not selectable! How many times are elements just not to be handled because something else is in the way (covering it).

c57 has grown in a direction tha was not community led - the core team chose, we had to accept. If you look at ImpressPages (which I cannot judge from a technical pov) you get a clean, proper interface that is understandable and consistent and not far away from the c57-idea. And It works thoughout.

c57 tries to please all and happens to please us designers and our customers not so much anymore. I wrote many times about it here on concrete5 - I wanted to give good inputs and hints from our daily work with c5. I accept it, when c5 moves towards a more technical orientend audience. But it runs danger of deteriorating to a playground for coders, away from the realworld.

concrete5 still has a terrible site (concrete5.org) - the search is so bad, you find more and better results via google.

The support is... well... community based, which is more than ok, but I don't recognize the core team a lot.

From this point of view, after more than 5 years of using concrete5 we really tend to look forward, which is away from concrete5. We do not consider 5.7 a progress but some sort of rearrangement of the old (not speaking of code-base under the hood, I cannot judge that).

What would improve c5 IMHO is:
- straightening and consolidation of the UI / UX
- the core team teaming up with the community in a (much more) constructive way
- objective, factual information on time for the community
- an overhaul of the concrete5.org (not design which is a matter of taste, but UX, functionality, structure).
juddc replied on at Permalink
juddc
Good points being discussed here. I'm more of a designer and have to deal with handing off to end-users as well.

While I agree on many points being made - especially the layout stuff (which is beyond most non-designer types for real-world use) I have to say, it still beats a lot of other systems out there.

The composer tool is great for letting end-user types handle complicated page layouts. But this raises an oft-overlooked point - anything beyond a Composer form with a complicated layout starts to get into Designer territory. I don't know anyway around that.

I agree the UI/UX isn't very consistant, and anything more than a few moves of new or reordered content and it gets buggy in the browser. Make a couple of moves, save the page. Make a couple of moves, save the page. I think the tray needs to die, personally - It's nothing but a whiz-bang gag.

Maybe they'll get it a little more solid as time goes on.

There are a slew of new little CMS' out there, and I'm always looking at them, but I do find that c5 has the power out-of-the-box to handle most client requests. Thanks for the tip on ImpressPages. Going to look at it now.

Cheers!
sschildbach replied on at Permalink
sschildbach
Agreed, from a web designer who has to code, design and please clients. I know you all worked hard on this, but you lost me as a customer when 5.7 was launched. Unstable, confusing, too many features I did not need, got to know pre-5.7 well and felt like I was in a different CMS. The worst thing of all was I have all of these websites for clients and I could not upgrade them. That was your biggest mistake that caused me to abandon C5. I'm sad about this because I really liked using Concrete5, the underdog. Once I switched to WordPress, my career took off and I no longer had to spend hours debugging broken pieces of my sites. Still, I wish C5, and all people who use it, well.
MrKDilkington replied on at Permalink
MrKDilkington
@sschildbach

To make concrete5 better, can you include more specific details regarding your issues. What did you find unstable and confusing? Which features do you feel are not useful?

I completely understand the pain of not being able to upgrade 5.6 sites to 5.7 sites, but there was no other way to modernize the underlying code and still allow for upgrades. The good news is that there is a migration tool for moving site content from 5.6 to 5.7.
https://www.concrete5.org/community/forums/customizing_c5/5.6-to-5.7...
sabumnimdk replied on at Permalink
sabumnimdk
Hi everyone,

Why is it that whenever I use the "new Area('Main'); it comes up with and error like this:
"Call to a member function hasPageThemeGridFrameworkOffsetClasses() on null"

But when I change it to "new Area('Content Main'); it does not result in any errors and everything works out fine?

Could someone please, for the love of God, explain this to me?

I am using a Bootstrap3 theme and running Concrete5 - V 5.7.5.2

//Carsten - Denmark
OKDnet replied on at Permalink
OKDnet
I'm guessing, but try checking in your themes page_theme.php file for an array in
public function getThemeAreaClasses()

Look for this array within it
'Content Main' => array(
                'classname1',
                'classname12',
            ),

If you find it, change it to
'Main' => array(
                'classname1',
                'classname12',
            ),
abra100pro replied on at Permalink
abra100pro
Deliberately installed and themed a 5.6.3.4 version, today - such a satisfying work after having worked with 5.7 for months now. Everything is so fast and buttons are buttons. UI is clean and so unbroken.

I know, I liked c57 also here in this thread. But the delight was short and the flame died. I'm not going to make new 5.7 sites, I guess. c5 has become exactly what we flew from when we came to c5 back in version 5.3. Sorry to say so.