So Disappointed!

Permalink
I have spent the last few hours learning about Concrete5, trying different templates, adding and removing blocks etc. After some testing I decided I was going to implement it onhttp://www.twitter-emporium.com

Then I came to the marketplace only to discover that it is $55 to put an ad block on my site. I thought this was an open source project. Put me in my place if I am wrong but how can it be open source if certain elements have to be purchased?

I can understand a third party site charging a fee but this is the main site. I don't have cash to throw around like some gurus do. I'm sure someone will have something smart to say but the facts are the facts.

Concrete5 definitely rocks. I don't have money to throw at it. My programming skills are not good enough to write my own. I guess it's back to Wordpress. Sigh!

Mrpalooza
View Replies:
hawkman4188 replied on at Permalink
hawkman4188
Yeah I wanted to use the calendar block but it too is 55 big ones. Now for me, C5 is too cool to stop using, but that does frustrate me just a bit. I could see $20 or $25, but $55??? Plus you have to buy it for every stinkin site you want to use it on.....sheesh..... not even joomla third party sites charge that much for a good calendar block. Oh well..... guess I'm waiting for some generous developer to make a free one...
frz replied on at Permalink
frz
sort a pagelist by chronological, or embed a google calendar and pay nuthin...


http://concretethestudio.com/2009/05/03/what-is-crippleware-why-are...
Alexander replied on at Permalink
Alexander
I actually have to agree with "hawkman4188". The prices for addons need to be reasonable - meaning $55 for the calendar block per single website(!) is too much.
nathan replied on at Permalink
nathan
If you plan to profit from your website then $55 is nothing, you should be able to make it back within days of launching.

This seriously is not about economics, this is about poor marketability, if your site can't re-generate $55, $85, $155... in a few days of activity then you should really be thinking about doing something else for a living.

On the other hand if your site is not based on making a profit then you need to suck it up and outlay what is required to make it do what you want it to whether that be your own time to develop or paying for someone else's time to develop.

The bottom line here is that not everything in life is free, if you found a site that said Concrete5 is 100% free then you can't blame Concrete5 if that's not true because maybe they had no input into that particular article. If you read the C5 website + licence + terms before downloading C5 then you have nothing to complain about.

Sorry if I'm starting to sound annoyed but WTF are you expecting? Everything cannot be free the world would collapse...

Cheers.
kutis replied on at Permalink
kutis
google ad manager has always been my choice,

adding a script to a template is easy enough to do without a block. (or the html block should do it)

buyselad is another option.

selling your own ad should quadruple (at least triple) your income vs what google provide, $55 should be nothing compares to what you'll earn
frz replied on at Permalink
frz
use the content block, image block, or html block for your ads and save a buck.

http://concretethestudio.com/2009/05/03/what-is-crippleware-why-are...
Remo replied on at Permalink
Remo
I understand that you like to get everything for free.. Who doesn't.

But please think from another view.

1. A lot of companies like MySQL publish their software as open source but still sell things. That's not uncommon at all!

2. Just because a part of a software is free, why does everything has to be free? You probably also paid for other software, didn't you?

3. You don't have money to throw around, but people also need to get money for their time, no?

4. Why do you expect the core team and the community to work for you for free all the time? A lot of people put a lot of time in free stuff, that's already quite nice, isn't it?

5. Okay, you're not a programmer. Why don't you create 50 free layouts and publish them as Concrete5 themes for free? The answer to this is probably also the answer why the core team and others don't publish everything for free..

Makes sense, doesn't it?
nathan replied on at Permalink
nathan
There seems to be a growing perception around the open source movement that "if I can get the core system for free why should I have to pay for the additions?"

This is such a shame, but it's also inevitable, the more of a good thing people can get the more they expect.

The other big issue here is that this perception is slowly starting to erode the idea of open source, the idea being that they share thier efforts with you in return for what ever you have to offer, be it bug reports, opinion, assistance etc... if you can't offer any of these things than please at least help the developers to continue their efforts by offering a small payment for their hard work...

I can't see how this is so hard to understand...

P.S. I'm not speaking on behalf of concrete5, I'm speaking on behalf of open source projects in general.
Mrpalooza replied on at Permalink
Mrpalooza
I have thoroughly read all the responses. Thank you Franz for pointing out those ideas that should of been obvious to me.

Remo - In all honesty I have never paid for a core system, template or addon. In the past I have contributed graphically. I have designed 7 premium CS:S maps, designed 6 X-Fire skins, I have made countless forum signatures for clan mates, I used to spend countless hours admin'n 6 Linux game and site servers. I have never asked for a penny in return.

The entire problem I have is this. Concrete5 is supposed to be open source. In Concrete5's philosophy it states:

"The web could be the most inexpensive and flexible communication system out there. It could be universally owned and used, and it could bring the barrier of entry down to zero for everyone.

So far it hasn't. It still takes a lot of money and technical skills to build and run a good looking website. We want to end that."

We want to end that? How? If i wanted to install the gallery, calendar, ad server and scrolling ticker it would cost me $150.00-US and from what I understand that is "per" site. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Remo, on number 5 you were pretty sarcastic. If I knew how to create them I would, it's just that simple.

Open source is not expecting anything in return. There is no gray area. Firefox for example is open source, that's an excellent example.

In the end, Concrete5 can do whatever they want. Their track record proves that they know what they are doing. This thread all started because I found it to be "misleading" when I read it was open source only to find out that certain features had to be purchased. It's no different than paying $150.00 for a complete system.

Nathan, so you are telling me if i designed 5 new templates and reported a few bugs I would get those blocks for free. I highly doubt it.

I am a single father supporting 2 kids(full custody) and trying like hell to make a profit on the net. I have recently started to promote dating sites and want to offer a free twitter resource to the community and hopefully make a buck off the advertising. I update a few dating directories, write dating articles and am constantly working on back-links. Between that and taking care of the kids my free time is minimal but I will try anyways to design a theme or two. Maybe I will charge for them after!! lol just kidding.
Remo replied on at Permalink
Remo
You do know the fact that Mozilla gets a lot of cash from Google to pay their bills?

No wonder they don't expect you to pay for anything... I don't get money to write Concrete5 addons from Google!

---

About #5 if I need a layout for a customer of mine, can I ask you to create one? I'll create a custom block in return. Not meant to be sarcastic, seriously!

I'm not a member of the core team, not sure if that kind of deal works with team but it would work for me for sure if I knew that your layouts (psd files) have the quality I need..

---

I don't agree that any part of open source
must be free but I do agree though, the philosophy states something that can mean everything about concrete5's free...
katz515 replied on at Permalink
katz515
> Open source is not expecting anything
> in return. There is no gray area.
> Firefox for example is open source,
> that's an excellent example.

This is one typical example that you misunderstood.



Read these news articles


Google helps Mozilla to turn over $66.8 million
http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/software/soa/Google-helps-Mozilla-to-t...

Mozilla Extends Lucrative Deal With Google For 3 Years
http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/08/28/mozilla-extends-lucrative-deal...


Firefox is making money off the small search toolbar.

Making an open source software needs money.

Firefox found their way to make money.

WordPress found their way to make money, wordpress.com, add-ons, and etc...

Joomla has its own way to make money. The core members have their own web sites to sell their "3rd party" products.

Drupal has its own way to make money... developers approach big corporations to get a big bucks.


They market very well to make money.

I have nothing wrong with their marketing tactics.

But concrete5 is the most honest open source solutions.

The concrete5 core team does not hide anything like Firefox, WordPress, Joomla or Drupal.

You just didn't know about this.
nathan replied on at Permalink
nathan
[quote]"Nathan, so you are telling me if i designed 5 new templates and reported a few bugs I would get those blocks for free. I highly doubt it."

No...

I should have stated that I wasn't speaking for everyone in that remark, what I was saying is simply that if you have the ability to contribute in some way (either dollar or skill based) then most open source projects can use it more than many people care to realise.

You just told me why it's hard for you to spend money on the site you are trying to create but you also need to understand that the guys behind this software are possibly in a similar situation, just because they have a nice website doesn't make them multi millionaires... (by the way I don't know them, I just got here, but I have been involved with open source projects in the past).

The fact is that what they have offered in the core system is huge in regards to the time and money they have put into it, they opened it up and offered it for free because they understand the demographic, that is... there is a requirement for this type of software in the community and most are not able (or sadly not willing) to pay for it.

If the site you are creating is going to cost you $150.00 + your time to get off the ground then you seriously need to do some market research to ensure that you can make that back (through advertising etc...) ASAP, otherwise what is really the point of your new site? And why should the cost be bared by others?

Cheers.
Mrpalooza replied on at Permalink
Mrpalooza
I am not trying to minimize the effort Concrete5's core developers have put forth. You both make valid arguments but my point seems to be lost. I have a hard time explaining myself sometimes although I know what I want to say.

Maybe I should explain it this way. My afternoon started with searching for a new CMS. I knew there had to be something better than WP, Joomla, Drupal and GL-Fusion. I spent a long time searching Google. Going through top ten lists, reviews etc. Then I went searching for a few old CMS that I used to use a few years back. I found a link that lead me to a review of Concrete5. Proclaiming it was the next big CMS to explode on the scene.

I immediately got excited. Downloaded the core, and started playing around with it. I couldn't believe how easy it was. I thought it was brilliant. The next step was to check the templates and see if there was anything I could mod to fit what I needed. I found 2 that I could play with.

At this point I was very excited to have found Concrete5, not to mention that it came with some excellent blocks already. So far, nothing up to this point indicated I had to purchase anything. Then I thought about monetizing my CMS and went searching for some kind of ad management.
BLAM....there stood the price of $55.00

Lets forget about open source for a second. All that time I spent researching, uploading, testing etc only to find out that I had to pay for additional blocks. After all that time I spent it was like a slap in the face. And to be honest, the blocks included in the core are better than the ones up for purchase. It didn't and still doesn't make sense to me.

You are right about the time the developers put in, but I'm still disappointed. I guess you can't please everyone. :)
hawkman4188 replied on at Permalink
hawkman4188
Like I said in my earlier post, I just think 55 is a little too expensive for one site usage of an addon. This seems to be a common feeling. The developers might make more money if they lower the prices a bit. What I mean by this is that more people would be willing to purchase those addons. It's all about the economics. I would imagine that many people (myself included) would buy those addons if they were a little more affordable. Another idea is to raise the price a little but widen the liscense to several sites or unlimited site usage.

But no matter what happens I believe that c5 is the best cms out there with the best staff. How many places would you see the CEO telling you where you could go for free alternatives to their products? (Thanks Frz!!)
frz replied on at Permalink
frz
I dunno, I've got 2 kids too, I've got bills as well.. $55 is a dinner. We're not talking about shelling out $600 for Photoshop here. None of the stuff we're selling is required, there are any number of ways you can solve problems like ad systems or calendars without paying anyone a dime.

The caveat to that however is when your unwilling to pay a dime for anything, you end up spending all your time doing everything. At some point in life it's wise to decide how much an hour out of your day is worth to you, as we all get only so many hours. My bet is, you'll find $55 to be far less than the amount of time it would take your to make or find something comparable in features.

Regarding open source = open source.. I'm afraid not. "open source" is actually a catch all term that emerged in the late 90's to describe a bunch of different actual licenses that danced around the two meanings of the word "free." Shareware, freeware, crippleware, etc.. It was all overwhelming for the press so some marketing savvy geeks invented "open source."

What's unfortunate about that is that the word "free" means two completely different things in English. There's free as in "Free Speech" and there's free as in "Free Beer." concrete5 is very much free as in free speech, even the commercial add-ons deliver source code, you can get under the hood. concrete5 is also very much free beer, we're just saying "look if you enjoy sitting at the bar, drinking the free beer, and eating the free cocktail peanuts.. we're gonna ask you to pay for the sandwich your hungry for now."

If that seems unreasonable to you, I doubt we would keep you happy in the big picture anyway..
wizardontherun replied on at Permalink
wizardontherun
Frz, nice post, I agree with you as being a code writer many years, Free software is great to start with (core framework), but every one need to make some $$$ or thier is no core, if you cant sell a site with addon for over 1000.00 (basic site) then you just are in the wrong biz. How can anyone expect to sell any product for profit with no cost involved. I just dont get people/companies looking to make money on the web, and have everyone else do the work?? got me.

Just a note, C5 and members ( have earned the right to ask for some $$$)..
Frank
Mrpalooza replied on at Permalink
Mrpalooza
Franz, you make a lot of sense in the way you describe it with the sandwich analogy. Perhaps this will make sense also.

It's a great establishment, the beer is going down good and I can't get enough of those damn peanuts. I just wish I would've seen the sign about "the sandwiches are not free" before getting hooked. A little humor but you get the point.

I guess up to this point I have been ignorant (in the true sense) as to what open source really is. It still doesn't change the fact that I don't have the money to fork over but you did also offer up some good alternatives earlier. Thank you everyone for your opinions. Maybe it's time I started learning about php and js.
beeman89045 replied on at Permalink
you eat expensive dinners. But - as you know from the never ending eCom dialog - I agree with your position.

;-)
MadaboutDana replied on at Permalink
I've been involved with computers for the past 20 years - started off playing with the first IBM PCs back in 1984 - and right now is the very best time ever! Amazing software is being created and made available for sweet FA - an incredible state of affairs! We run our small-business extranet on Mindtouch Deki Wiki (for which we haven't paid a dime), we run blogs on FlatPress and WordPress (for which we haven't paid a dime), we run our file system on Alfresco Labs 3 (for which we haven't paid a dime) and now we've discovered Concrete5, which looks like one of the neatest CMS concepts I've seen. And hey, guess what, it's free!

At a much earlier stage in the web's development, I used to pay shareware authors for their goodies (this was before the days of time-limited shareware - this was while users were still trusted to put their paws in their wallets if they used a prog for more than 30 days). Nowadays, if I find something that's seriously competent, I like to make a donation. I can't believe the things that are out there for free!

If you make the decision to spend hours of your life creating designs, running websites and managing clubs for free, that's a great thing - but be aware it's your own personal decision. If people who are creating software for free decide to charge for additional components simply so they can feed their own kids - well, that's their decision. Don't make a great moral thing out of it ("that's so not open-source"). As Franz rightly remarks, open source is a very inadequate term. Just check out "open-source" applications like o3spaces to see what I mean. To live nowadays, you gotta earn money. Time = money. The fact that people decide to give away so much of their time (in development etc.) for free is something that still fills me with wonder and gratitude. Hell, there are amazing free apps out there which aren't "open-source" at all, but are still free (CCleaner, QuotePad, FastStone Image Viewer, EssentialPIM, TreeSheets, Melloware PlacesBar Editor...). It's all brilliant.

I suggest a sense of perspective is required here. That way, you may find you can charge for what you do, make a good living for your kids (hey, you introduced them, not me), and still enjoy the many wonderful things that are available for free out there...
ideasponge replied on at Permalink
ideasponge
Open source means the source is available instead of being compiled. This does not mean it is free though. Just because they have made the core of the application free, does not mean it should all be free.

Look at SugarCRM. They have a free Open Source community version of the software, and then a few paid versions which are quite expensive.

Also like Nathan said, if you plan to profit off of the work of others, why can they not also profit off of their own work? Greed disguised as need is still greed.

As for any misleading messages, that is just the way it is done in nearly every industry. Nearly everything in life that has some free element to it, isn't really free. Like free shipping. You are still paying for shipping, the just include the cost of it into the cost of the item you buy so that they can say it is free shipping.

At least they make the core part free that allows you get started on generating some capital, then you can plus your site and make it better and more hands off with the banner rotations and what not.

Be thankful that there is at least that, a killer core CMS that makes creating websites fun and easy with little to no experience required, and is completely free to use. Commercial addons not required.
Jpif replied on at Permalink
Hum...
AcruxFarmer replied on at Permalink
AcruxFarmer
Do you for free. Maybe you should start, or just keep a zipper on your negative comments.
Mrpalooza replied on at Permalink
Mrpalooza
I'd say you're a little late to the party. A month late. Maybe you should tend to your fields. If you took the time to read my last post you would know that after everyone's input I see the dev's point of view and agree with them.

Only thing worse than a troll is a troll that comes unprepared.
frz replied on at Permalink
frz
all done, i'm closing this thread.. we all agree..

1) concrete5 rocks.
2) we should be able to encourage free speech, give away free beer, and still ask you to pay for pretzels without being considered evil
3) as soon as you go open source, you become "the man" - no matter how big your side burns are.

it's good to be admin, enuf. ;)

-frz